[Sean_A]

Ryan

I can understand your frustration, but golf is heading toward an impasse.  The price keeps going up, the rounds take longer to play and I don't think added yards is a coincidence.  To me, 4 hours is not a magic number.  I would prefer 3.5 hours for a game and settle for 4.  As it is now folks claim the goal is 4 hours and not so secretly hope it takes no more than 4.5 hours.  To me, the only way forward is to make courses shorter and as a interim measure try to entice golfers to play shorter tees.  Now, I don't think it will work to reduce green fees for an already struggling business, but a surcharge doesn't seem unreasonable to me to open the back tees up.  I don't see education as a way toward making the game faster or cheaper because we have been singing that tune since I became familiar with the game - yet the inflation of time, money and yardage continues.  I don't know if it would work (I suspect young guns would pay extra, but older horses would use it aas the excuse tehy need to move up), but I certainly think it or something else is worth a try.  This cycle will only continue no matter what anybody says.  Guys will continue to hit the ball further and even if they don't, the powers that be with professional golf will continue to tinker with courses and add yardage because that is what they have always done regardless of equipment issues because its about defending par even though the current notion of par is trerribly outdated.  Its almost as if golf needs to be divorced from the pro game so folks don't get stupid ideas about what a proper length course is and how well conditioned it should be.  Of course I realize that my thinking would in all probability lead to two sets of courses - championship and all others, but I think this is how it was all those years ago and folks seemed to accept then.  If want a serious test, go to a championship course.  Otherwise, be content with the many other wonderful courses some of which are good enough to challenge any scratch player.  

Ciao

[Alex Miller]

Sean,

1. I would pay the normal fee and simply move back out on the course. When I pay it's either for 9 or 18 holes, and it's for access to the entire course! Should we get rid of dunking in basketball since most of us can't do it? The pros can, and some very good amateurs too, but no one is stopping them from trying.

2. Other things have changed to make golf take longer than just the yardage of the course. Carts, pre-shot routines learned from PGA Tour players, cell phones, 5-somes, impractical routings, players who are uneducated about etiquette and are not proactive in being ready to hit their next shot.

[JR Potts]

Sean, don't take my opinions for frustration.  I wouldn't ever pay a penny more to p,ay a different tee.  In fact, if that were ever put into effect, I just wouldn't play the course...ever.  No harm to me...no foul.

Yes, additional stress is being put on the game by the gumbyization of golf, but that is something that the market will dictate - one way or another.  It's not for me as a long hitter with a crappy putting stroke or anyone else as a short hitter with a great short game to impose an arbitrary tax on the game.  

If an owner wants to do so, he/she can do so at their own peril/enrichment.

[Sean_A]

Ryan & Alex

Of course these are pie in the sky ideas.  However, the consequences of not doing something are fairly easy to forecast.  Somebody is gonna have to give up something or all and golf will suffer.  I realize that as golfers were are essentially selfish ( I spose not terribly different than how the rest of soceity works), the equipment craze of the past 15 years despite the added cost is proof of that.  I guess until folks are willing to put down their howitzer drivers, yardage guns and fancy balls we can't really expect owners to take action.  Still, its a vicious cycle which will take vicious measures to break - one way or another.  Time will tell, but I don't like the look of golf as a business and that is bad news in the long term because its takes businessmen to build and operate courses.

Ciao   

[JR Potts]

Sean:  your prognosis is true if you look at golf as a game for the masses.  Maybe golf is like home ownership and it can't work for the masses as a business?  I never looked at it from that perspective as golf has always Vern a luxury for me - but I will agree, if golf is going to transcend income clases, something has to give.  That said, one thousand yards is the least of its problems. 

[Brian Marion]

Jud, et al:

I like Shivas response !

Candidly, too many people take on way too much course for their games to handle. The issue is for the tiny percentage of people who do have the game and want to be sufficiently challenged.

Frankly, what tees someone plays matters little if the pace of play keeps up. That's the real issue that gets little attention.

Matt, I have to agree.

Which of course, brings up another issue - how many of the slowest of the slow are that way because they were never taught the "game" within the game and pace of play but have picked up the game bit by bit on their own accord.

They bought a set of clubs and hit a bucket at the range after watching tv and having a subscription to the latest magazine. Then, deciding they could actually hit the ball, started playing.

These are the same who we all see:

1. Walk up onto tee box to access the shot
2. Walk back to the cart and pull driver (it was always driver - the hole is 390 yards!)
3. Pull on glove
4. Put ball on tee and push into ground
5. Throw grass to judge wind (good lord, it's driver!)
6. Take 4-6 practice swings to "feel" the shot
7. Visualize the shot while over the ball
8. Swing!!!!

From the fairway:

1: Find ball
2. walk to fairway and look for sprinkler head
3. Walk off yardage
4. Consult book/pin sheet/laser/GPS/God, whatever
5. Do caddy math
6. Throw grass
7. Check tree tops/water/flags/clouds
8. Do caddy math again
9. Walk back to cart
10 Pull club
11. Walk back to ball
12. Put on glove
13. Preshot routine
13. Etc, etc, etc arrrgghhhh!!!!

Repeat this for every shot, every putt. Throw in the 2 beverage cart stops per nine, plus the turn, plus looking for lost balls and it's going to be a long day.

So who should share the blame?

The player - of course

The facility - Where is written that "there shalt be a beverage cart" and "Thou shalt have the priviledge of a full meal between holes 9 and 10!"

The Magazines - If I see one more article about pre-shot routine and visualizing every shot I swear I'm going to puke. That's great for tournaments and high level competitions.......Sunday at 11:00am? I'm playing hooky from church -.....freakin hit already 'cause you ain't hit one where you "visualized" it going yet!!!!!!!

TV/PGA Tour - Call out the slow guys. Of course now, they are talking about mic'ing the players so we can hear the fantastic conversations between caddy and player. Trust me, that is only going to slow weekend play down more because someone will think they have picked up a great "pro" tip and because they are a single digit handicap (read an 9) and they are "just about" as good as a pro and that tip is going to get them to scratch and with just a little more practice they can quit their day job and go to Q School. YOU ARE NOT, not even close, never will be if you are older than 10 years old!!!!!!

In short, maybe, if they had been taught the game in some way, they would better understand? If they had learned from a group that kept up play and didn't tolerate slow play, then they wouldn't think they were the only person out there.

I'm sure I can call out more and I know I've missed something but whew....I'm tired already so I think I'll got to the 19th hole and just have a beer......and wait until the course clears out

THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR SLOW PLAY IN DAY TO DAY GOLF!!

[Tom ORourke]

Ryan,
I love Merion and I can hit driver all day long there as I am not very long. But I don't think the total length of a course is always indicative of how long it plays. Even a big hitter can play Merion with driver at 2, 4, 5, 6, 14, 15, 16 and 18. And, at the last US Am I saw a number of guys hit driver at 7 and 8 and 12, looking to get down as close as they could. I think a course with a variety of holes, where driver is often a must, but with a share of strategic shorter holes, can be very challenging and under 6,600 yards. But I don't see trying to charge different rates for different tees. Many guys would pay the white rate and go back to the blues on the second hole anyway. That is why I always try to be in the first group off. It is worth getting up early to be ahead of the guys playing over their heads.

[Carl Johnson]

Here's my personal experience, and a suggestion.  I play a par 71 course.  I'm almost 70.  My white tee (5891) HC is 23.  My most common foursome includes three others in their early to mid-50s with HCs from the blue tees (6453) of 6, 8 and 12.  We play the usual four ball Nassau ($2).  I play the whites, with a three stroke rating difference from the blues.  So, I play the match to a 20 and get 14 off our low man who, with the others, plays the blues.  All per the USGA HC procedures.  We've got tee times this coming Sunday and the Monday holiday, and weather permitting, we'll be out there.  I hope I can speak for the others in saying we have a great time "playing" golf together.  The HC rules work.  No one dominates.  Note that we're not playing the course.  We pick up when "out of it."  We're playing a game on the course, not against the course.

Second.  I frequently play with men much older than I am, all excellent golfers, but unable in their late 80s and early 90s to hit the ball very far.  Several of them should be playing from the forward tees (5253), and they usually do.  However, they have a difficult time with the concept that they should give up the rating difference between the whites and the forward tees.  Their HC is already lowered by moving up, so they wonder, "Why more?"  Without going into detail, in the case of playing from different tees with these guys, it doesn't always work so well, but then, I say, "I really don't care that much."  However, others do.

Solution.  I need to work a harder, and by inference I'm suggesting that maybe others should, too, to try to help more of my club members understand the USGA handicapping system a little better.  And, to encourage the game on the course, not against the course.  I understand this mindset will not suit all golfers, but with help I believe we could move more USA golfers in that direction, which in my opinion would be a good thing

  

[Jim_Kennedy]

Ryan,
I didn't see this idea as socilaism, but if I must: What I propose is more about capitalism than the socialism that you are presently enjoying on the golf course. A 7,500 yard tee box is a welfare program for you. The developer is almost forced to create it because the magazines and the raters and the writers hardly ever notice a well designed 6,500 yard course, yet the player who doesn’t go back there is forced to pay a portion of his green fee for your benefit. I can see why you are against wanting to pay a little something extra for it, you’re getting it for nothing now.
The reverse notion, that you are paying extra for the forward tee, is a non-starter. If the course stopped at the forward tees, and was 5000 yards long, the cost would be many millions less than it is at 7,500 yards. It is only the addition of the 2,000 yards that requires the extra acreage, extra maintenance, and extra manpower to take care of it.

....and you're wrong about incentives, they work in the golf business and are more even-handed than your approach, which says the golfer "..should be thrown off the golf course". 

.......does that make you a socialist with totalitarian leanings, or vice versa. 

[Matt_Ward]

Sean:

Get real please.

The solution is a simple one -- have the people who run the course observe play and stay on top of the slowpokes -- no matter what tee box they opt to play.

One doesn't have to reinvent the wheel on this topic -- but slow play for most mgmt groups is nothing more than a talking point -- not a clear action item. The tee debate is a smokescrreen that obscures the main point -- failure to crack down on all elements of slow play.

Brian:

Well said -- the people who own and run the course are the ones who often don't speed up play -- they contribute to the death march of 5 plus hours of playing. The tee issue is a red herring. Clealy mgmt can observe players and if it becomes obvious that people are biting off more than they can chew regarding length of course -- they can encourage them to play from the next box up.

You also mentioned a good point -- too many distractions -- often times unrelated to the golf -- are added when people are playing -- and this only adds to the total time on the course.

Mgmt runs the asylum -- when you let the inmates do it -- chaos results.

Jim K:

C'mon please -- enough of the usage of the 7,500 yard course -- my God, they represent a very tiny percentage of what is really involved here.

Enjoy reading your self-created propaganda regarding ym personal tastes in golf courses. I enjoy the full range of courses -- the stereotype you are spinning is truly comical. Please point out for me where I have ever said that difficulty / length automatically conveys design greatness.

Jim, let me wake you up from the nap -- possibly even coma -- you are experiencing -- the issue is pace of play. I could care less what tees people play so long as they keep up with the program. No doubt many players should play from markers that are closer to the skill levels. For the great bulk of them -- nothing more than 6,500 yards should suffice.

However, I and people like me, should not have to pay a surcharge because we want to match our games against the rear tee positions.

I was falling off the chair with laughter with your rubbish about "misleading the golfing public for so many years." I contribite my "fair share" by being ready to play when it's my turn and not feeding my gizzard with big gulps at every moment like so many golfers do -- not to mention the food golfers stuff in their mouths so that play drags even more and more.

Mgmt doesn't need to concern themselves with people who can play and move -- they need to focus their energy on what strategies and elements they are doing to ensure that those less skilled are not biting off more than they can chew and with it causing the slow play that invariably happens as they proceed to make net double-bogeys or worse on a number of holes.

Alex / Ryan:

Thanks for your sane and solid points on this inane desire to wack those who wish to play the back tees. It's nothing more than a dodge ball game that ignores the slow play issues that are the more critical issue at-hand.

[Scott Warren]

Matt Ward is *gulp* right that many courses could be more active about addressing slow play.

Though I will say this "choose the right tees" stuff makes me laugh whenever it comes up. In most parts of the UK (due to "tees of the day") and in Australia (most rounds played by serious golfers are in club comps - most clubs have 3-4 a week - where tees are set) it's a non issue because you don't have the ability to choose.

[Doug Siebert]

I'd like to see somebody put one of those swing-speed, ball-speed box things on the first tee of his public course.  There would be one tee on first hole for everybody.  Then, based on your ball-speed, you'd be designated a set of tees for holes #2-18.  First of all, people would think it's cool to get their ball speed on the first tee for free.   Second, it'd speed up play.  Third, it would be the box telling people what tees they should play from, not a person...the guy who thinks he belongs on the tips would be staring at the cold, hard fact of the box telling him otherwise.

LOL I can just see all the bad reviews that course would get, as people play poorly on holes 2-18 due to the back they threw out due to their buddies giving them crap about "better swing hard to make sure you don't get put on the ladies' tees"

[Doug Siebert]

Sean,

While some slow play is undoubtedly due to people playing the wrong tees, this and no other specific thing is a cure-all for slow play.

I've always advocated ideas of one warning then kick you off if you can't keep pace, though I think ideas where you get rebates for playing at a pace are workable - though you still have the problem of guys with too much money and too little manners, who would be happy to pay an extra $1000 a head to play a six round round on Pebble Beach, not caring about the horde of angry people behind them.

[Alex Miller]

All,

I would contend that most of the time someone who knows how to play quickly can play a hole that is 450 yards in the same amount of time as a hole that's 400 yards. Chances are that a 220 yard driver is hitting a shortish 3rd in to the green anyway, and if they know how to play efficient golf the extra yardage should not be an issue.

Slow play comes from excessive searches for balls, which arises thanks to sprayed tee shots; lengthy pre-shot routines; and poor preparation before it's their turn. Does the yardage of the course have anything to do with those? No, but unfortunately these are merely characteristics of the real problem.

The problem is people haven't learned the right way to play the game, and there is a right way. I'm sure 95% of those on here know and have known since we began playing that golf is a game which can be and should be played in a timely fashion, assuming you know what you're doing out there. The slow players have picked up the game without understanding what we do: there is a right way to play. They play their way, and while it's fun for them they're oblivious to the impact it has on the rest of us.

The solution to this problem cannot be achieved simply. It's not to banish golf carts or charge players to play the back tees. It's to make sure that those new to the game understand that they are sharing the course with an entire community. It's great that organizations like The First Tee emphasize character building aspects of the game, but I have no idea if they prepare kids to play the right way. I'm sure that's not their first priority, and neither should it be. But it is something that any and all programs involving young golfers should incorporate. Anyone trying to introduce someone to the game should try to make this idea a focus of theirs too. I've enjoyed plenty of rounds with golfers who couldn't break 100 to save their life, but paid attention and knew when it was their turn or when it was time to pick up.

There is no way to completely weed out slow play, but if there is an effort from the entire golfing community to educate, we can reduce the frustrations of slow play dramatically.

As for the point of this thread, I think there is an appropriate tee for each person, but I think the value placed on tees played is far greater than it actually merits as long as the golfer plays the right way. An extra 300 yards on the course is mostly walking distance which would've been walked anyways. A player may have 4-5 extra shots per round because of that 300 yards, so maybe the round takes 5 minutes longer. It's for the players with long pre-shot routines and poor preparedness that it adds 20-30 min. to the round.

-Alex

[Sean_A]

You lot are far out there if you think a businessman is going to kick an already paid customer out of his shop for browsing too long.  What world do you live in?  It must be the world of not caring about repeat business or word of mouth.  You make it sound like there are only a few transgressors out there.  I am telling ya that may be the case when a round takes 4:00 or 4:15, but not 5 and 5.5 hours.  Lets face it, the 5 hour game is the new 4 and there is no question that an easy way to reduce time is to have shorter courses.  There are very few places that can get away with harranging golfers, like they do at TOC and the golf there is still slow when the touristas are around.  I would also add that at least some of the slow pokes have been taught - by tv pros.  The long routines are not an accident.

Ryan

The issue with making golf viable for the masses has to be connected with affordability.  Maybe you are right that golf for the masses can't work on a major scale without government intervention, but I do believe it can and one of the main issues effecting this is added costs due to those 1000 yards you write of.  Mind you, part of the problem with the 1000 yards is often times it is used a the primary way to create challenge rather than exploring other directions - a lot of newish architecture at the 7200 yard level tends to be bland because the challenge is really about length.  Its quite an accomplishment when an archie can build a long course which works for championship play (because length at the top level is virtually a non-issue) and for the 18 capper.  

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

Matt,
It's only a 'sideshow' to you because you'd be one of the players that will have to pay your fair share of the millions spent purchasing the extra real estate and the associated costs of constructing and maintaining the 'tips'.

Jim- I thought the first post re extra charge for using the back tees and the relevance of extra real estate was a joke. From a UK perspective I reckon it costs less than $7,000 per year to maintain the back tees. Land purchase costs would be tiny, the 'tips' are often extended back into land you already have.
Extra charge for Back tee use is a stupid as charging a poorer player more for using 50% more shots on the green or three whacks out of a sand bunker.
Education of the right tee for the length you hit to maximise your enjoyment. Not so long back in match play you got 3/4 stroke allowance but it changed to full shots, maybe theres a better formula or a choice in the higher capper taking less strokes but moving up a marker.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Whilst 6300 (par 72) is about fine for me, there is no doubt that many do not enjoy golf courses that short. Golf is a business but its the entertainment business its about making people happy, brutal courses are okay for one go, we all like making pars, birdies and doing our best, fortunately a couple of good holes is enough to keep the spark littered with a few blobs. GOLF ENJOYMENT for many people now is not about 350 yard holes, or laying up 5 irons into dead zones on fairways, many older golf courses have become redundant to the longer hitter, the hazards are now set wrong for them, there are golfers that enjoy courses at 7000 yards, these 7000 yard lovers can be up to 12 handicap, some mid cappers can whack it 300 easy. Providing a golf course at less than 7000 yards (par 72) will see some of these golfers go elsewhere, although when I talk about 7000 par 72 a course of 6300 par 69 is equal.

[Jud_T]

Matt,

Speeding up play is not a black and white issue.  There's one course locally where they have marshals that are like the SS.  If you're half a hole behind they won't let you grab a beer at the turn.  Do they speed up play by 10 minutes a round? perhaps. but it's such an oppressive environment that even though it's a good course, it's no fun to play on the weekends, and believe me I like playing fast.  It'd be better if they simply charged a few extra bucks and spaced tee times more appropriately.  Slow play has to do more with ability and primarily etiquette IMHO.  

[Tim Martin]

Matt,

Speeding up play is not a black and white issue.  There's one course locally where they have marshals that are like the SS.  If you're half a hole behind they won't let you grab a beer at the turn.  Do they speed up play by 10 minutes a round? perhaps. but it's such an oppressive environment that even though it's a good course, it's no fun to play on the weekends, and believe me I like playing fast.  It'd be better if they simply charged a few extra bucks and spaced tee times more appropriately.  Slow play has to do more with ability and primarily etiquette IMHO.  

Jud-Your last sentence rings true. Etiquette is a huge part of slow play. The mentality that I paid so I am going to get my money`s worth is a killer. When you got guys putting for triple`s and quad`s the entire round  then you got a six hour round. Not only is this segment of the golfing population putting out on every hole but they are plumb bobing the putt for 9. 

[Adrian_Stiff]

It almost needs a new etiquette rule, perhaps....golfers should pick up their ball when they have taken more strokes that can score a stableford point.

We have drifted off the original thread btw.

[JR Potts]

Ryan,
I didn't see this idea as socilaism, but if I must: What I propose is more about capitalism than the socialism that you are presently enjoying on the golf course. A 7,500 yard tee box is a welfare program for you. The developer is almost forced to create it because the magazines and the raters and the writers hardly ever notice a well designed 6,500 yard course, yet the player who doesn’t go back there is forced to pay a portion of his green fee for your benefit. I can see why you are against wanting to pay a little something extra for it, you’re getting it for nothing now.
The reverse notion, that you are paying extra for the forward tee, is a non-starter. If the course stopped at the forward tees, and was 5000 yards long, the cost would be many millions less than it is at 7,500 yards. It is only the addition of the 2,000 yards that requires the extra acreage, extra maintenance, and extra manpower to take care of it.

....and you're wrong about incentives, they work in the golf business and are more even-handed than your approach, which says the golfer "..should be thrown off the golf course". 

.......does that make you a socialist with totalitarian leanings, or vice versa. 

Jim:

You make too many assumptions and take too many logical leaps with your argument.  You are presupposing that the back tees actually have to be added.  Remember, on many golf courses the back tees are placed at the back of hazards because the players playing from these tees should be able to make the forced carries.  These back tees allow the designers an opportunity to take advantage of a lot of natural hazards without providing fill or moving teeing grounds well away from the hazards, thus, keeping the routing in place. 

However, as it is though, to make the game more elastic for the shorter hitter, they may need to build a bridge into the middle of the hazard and place a tee there so that these shorter hitters have a place to tee the ball without the burden of a longer carry but while keeping the design intent of the hole in place.  It seems to me that the shorter hitters here somehow blame the longer and more skilled players for golf ills but maybe it is the other way around?  Maybe it depends on ones perspective and maybe, and likely, there is no right answer.

[Tim Nugent]

I tried a simple solution but don't know how well it works.  It's my experience that many back tee players who don't have the game haveeither a too big ego, "want to see the whole course", or "want to get their money's worth.  So, I routed the course so the 1st hole had a long, forced carry from the tips.  The "get your money's worth crowd doesn't like to lose their balls.

Now, of course they can simply move back (although, the 2nd, due to a pre-exsiting land plan, is a long par 3 - with another large hazard to carry )  So, hopefully by the 3rd, the die is cast as to what tees they will be playing.  I was banking on the fact that those who keep score usually stick to set of tees for handicapping purposes.

Ryan, it is true that many courses over 7,000 yds require more money to build and maintain and many developers have been brainwashed into tinking the only way to get noticed is to have "championship length".  But, you state you are  long driver and crappy putter.  As such, I would suscribe that it would take you just as long to play a 6,800 yd course as the speed of your game is controlled by how long it takes you to line up all those putts, although one would think that, if you had a a good short iron game, those putts would be from much closer and hence a reduction in their number.

You state that you don't want driver/wedge (AKA - the pro game).  Well, could it be that you are trapped by Par?  You could play from 510 or so on listed par 5's, just call them a par 4 for you.  Or, if hitting a 4-5 iron approach is desired (and you are not getting that on par 5's, take the club off the tee that will put you in that position from the fairway.

BTW, I bet you only fly coach, although you could pay more for extra room, you don't on principle LOL

[Matt_Ward]

Sean:

A smart business realizes if you have to kick one person off to satisfy those who do comply and keep the program moving -- so be it. If you fail to see that -- then what "world do you live in?"

Time matters to many people -- do a survey and ask them the following -- have a golf course of average design and be guaranteed no more than 3 1/2 hours to play versus a top tier layout that will take you 5 plus hours to play. Guess what many -- likely the majority -- will choose. Any guy married with kids knows the answer already.

You say shorter courses are the answer. Rubbish. Better mgmt handling the people who use such facilities is the only way to go. I do concur that getting people to play tees appropriate to their skill levels is needed -- but don't punish those with games to play sporty / executive layouts that are pitch and putt types.

The nonsense you mentioned about "harranging" golfers is far more in the minority than you make it out to be. Most facilities only really hustle when they get your credit card # to punch in your fee. After that -- most do nothing. Frankly, I have no issue with people being admonished when they have been observed in a variety of slow play instances - warned once and then take action the second time. If that means refunding their $$ so be it -- the majority of players will be satisfied and others who value faster play will more than make-up for the loss income from those neanderthals who can't comply.

Jud:

Hold the phone amigo -- I never emphasized that mgmt needs to be like the prison wardens in moving slow players around. But far too many courses do SQUAT about it. The tees used by players is a smokescreen issue raised here -- people can decide for themselves -- so long as they keep the pace up. Most will need to play a far forward tee because frankly it takes time to handle the increased distances when your best tee shot is only going 150 or so yards -- or your big blast is traveling sideways like an out-of-control rocket off the pad.

Jud, you are dead wrong -- mgmt sets the terms and conditions of playing.

I have no issue with etiquette and ability but mgmt puts into motion a desired outcome -- when you throw into the mix -- a beverage cart that allows players to have a tailgate party while other play stops for the carnival act -- then playing the game is not the only item on the dance card.

Mgmt can set realistic tee time spacing and make sure personnel are positioned in the critical areas. Players are like cattle -- keep on them and the herd will move. In the long run -- the thought of increased speed of play will temper any possible negative reaction that comes from being pushed. Just ask most guys who have a wife that wants to see them return quickly for house chores and the like.

Shivas / Doug:

That would be amusing to see people try to swing faster so that they can avoid banishment to lady tee markers.

Scott:

That wasn't so difficult to agree with me was it ?

One difference though -- I object to clubs that set only one tee box -- any course should provide at least three tee boxes set in some sort of different lengths for players to choose. If just one tee box is set invariably someone will be playing a course they wish to avoid playing.

[JR Potts]

I tried a simple solution but don't know how well it works.  It's my experience that many back tee players who don't have the game haveeither a too big ego, "want to see the whole course", or "want to get their money's worth.  So, I routed the course so the 1st hole had a long, forced carry from the tips.  The "get your money's worth crowd doesn't like to lose their balls.

Now, of course they can simply move back (although, the 2nd, due to a pre-exsiting land plan, is a long par 3 - with another large hazard to carry )  So, hopefully by the 3rd, the die is cast as to what tees they will be playing.  I was banking on the fact that those who keep score usually stick to set of tees for handicapping purposes.

Ryan, it is true that many courses over 7,000 yds require more money to build and maintain and many developers have been brainwashed into tinking the only way to get noticed is to have "championship length".  But, you state you are  long driver and crappy putter.  As such, I would suscribe that it would take you just as long to play a 6,800 yd course as the speed of your game is controlled by how long it takes you to line up all those putts, although one would think that, if you had a a good short iron game, those putts would be from much closer and hence a reduction in their number.

You state that you don't want driver/wedge (AKA - the pro game).  Well, could it be that you are trapped by Par?  You could play from 510 or so on listed par 5's, just call them a par 4 for you.  Or, if hitting a 4-5 iron approach is desired (and you are not getting that on par 5's, take the club off the tee that will put you in that position from the fairway.

BTW, I bet you only fly coach, although you could pay more for extra room, you don't on principle LOL

While I agree I can treat a Par5 like a Par4, it still isn't and never will be a Par4...despite how I may perceive it.  I get that many on here have a more idealistic approach to golf than me so our competing positions will probably always diverge.

And to address my putting, for those who have played with me, I don't think anyone will ever make a comment that I take too much time over anything on the golf course - except the 19th hole and only my wife will make that claim.  I look at the putt once and hit it...even if I had the right line, the odds of me hitting it solid and on-line are so low that it really doesn't matter.  As such, for those keeping score, 95% of my holed putts over 7 feet are total luck.

PS - First Class is for guys with two+ country clubs, expense accounts and when turning in miles.  The former two I don't have so it's usually coach for me baby...and I aint complaining.

[Jim Hoak]

Back to the Barney Adams' article that started this thread, he is proposing something to make golf more enjoyable and stem the loss of numbers of golfers.  He concludes that the equivalent course length for an average amateur is 1500 yards shorter than that for an average tour pro.  That seems to make sense to me.
When many of us play 6700 yards, that equates to an 8200 yard course for a pro--they probably wouldn't enjoy that much.  For fun--and the growth of the game--most of us probably need to be at about 6000 yards.  That would bring fun back into the game.

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