The Eighteen Best Courses I Never Got To Build - last 3 courses posted

[Morgan Clawson]

Tom,

Thanks for such a fascinating thread.

I think the good news for you is that you are really building your future business pipeline!  it may take 5-10 years to get there, but I bet some of these projects will get built. Looks like there is a decent chance with Wild Pony and Black Mesa.

Timeline question:  What's the quickest project you've done from the initial phone call to the 1st day of play?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,
       In 2005 I played Castlegregory. I remember it being 9 holes, but I thoroughly enjoyed it. Was any of the original 9 utilized in the new 36?

Bruce:

Our project was just a bit to the east of the nine-hole Castlegregory course, on a spit of land that sticks up into Tralee Bay.  The layout that Bill Coore did came pretty close to the boundary fence with the existing course, but they were never going to be combined.

[Eric Smith]

Tom,

You're right, it was Mr. Case I was thinking of.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

Thanks for such a fascinating thread.

I think the good news for you is that you are really building your future business pipeline!  it may take 5-10 years to get there, but I bet some of these projects will get built. Looks like there is a decent chance with Wild Pony and Black Mesa.

Timeline question:  What's the quickest project you've done from the initial phone call to the 1st day of play?

Morgan:

I won't say who it was, but years ago a friend of mine was talking to another architect and he referred to the time span for each project as "three to five [years]," like a prison sentence.    This is generally accurate when you factor in permitting (or financing) on one end and grow-in on the other.  The construction of the course generally only takes 8-12 months from groundbreaking to planting. 

The fastest I've ever done one is 16 months ... Stonewall called me in February of 1992, hired me the next month, we got the whole course built and planted that fall, and then they opened in the summer of '93.  But, that was only possible because they had done the permitting for the project with another architect (Tom Fazio) before they called me, and we could hit the ground running.  There aren't many places where you can do that anymore.

[Tom_Doak]

Maybe if we mount an email/write-in campaign to Julian Robertson, he will reconsider the Farm. 

Write-in votes probably won't help.  If everyone got together to sponsor a $1 million bridge, I think it would happen right away.

[George Pazin]

Maybe if we mount an email/write-in campaign to Julian Robertson, he will reconsider the Farm. 

Write-in votes probably won't help.  If everyone got together to sponsor a $1 million bridge, I think it would happen right away.

I can sponsor a plank!

Kind of a funny mental image: planks or plaques on a bridge, like the donor ones outside university buildings, hospitals, stadiums, etc.

[Shane Wright]

Maybe if we mount an email/write-in campaign to Julian Robertson, he will reconsider the Farm. 

Write-in votes probably won't help.  If everyone got together to sponsor a $1 million bridge, I think it would happen right away.
[/quote

Tom, surely julian could find someone to put up the $1 mil bridge with a payback pledge of $20-$30 of every green fee paid.

[Ash Towe]

Tom,

Thanks for the detailed answer.

I wonder if the course was built at CK it would be a more of a destination?

[Mark_F]

I wonder if the course was built at CK it would be a more of a destination?

I'd go there, Ash. 

Be a good venue for another Boomerang, then.

[Adam Clayman]

Maybe get Julian to make a wager on when his TIPS will come in. Hell, a million will be peanuts when that trade starts to trend.

[Lester George]

Tom,

I was sure you would include Whiskey Creek on the list!!!  The one that neither one of us got, and boy am I glad for both of us. 

Lester

[PThomas]

  The one that neither one of us got, and boy am I glad for both of us. 

curious minds want to know why!

[Jonathan Cummings]

Tom - Too much of this, for business reasons, you have to keep close to your chest but can you speak to "the top 18 I walked away from?"  JC

[Tom_Doak]

Jonathan:

There have really only been a handful of times that I thought a piece of property had the potential for a great course, but decided against pursuing it anyway. 

The only reason to walk away is if I don't think the client and I would be on the same page.  There was a little bit of that at Erin Hills ... when I interviewed with Bob Lang, he mentioned something about wanting to build an 8,000 yard course, and I questioned why he would want to do that.  [Acutally, I did the same thing many years ago at what is now The Institute GC in California.]  A great salesman would have just sucked it up and tried to get the job anyway, but I am just not interested in exploring 8,000 yard courses.

The rest of those handful of jobs, I'd prefer not to identify.

[Garland Bayley]

We know Tom declined the opportunity at Tetherow.

Or perhaps chose Wicked Pony over it.

[Ronald Montesano]

"We know Tom declined the opportunity at Tetherow."

We do, do we?  Not a big fan of this type of comment.  It's insulting to DMK and to TD at the same time.

[Tom_Doak]

"We know Tom declined the opportunity at Tetherow."

We do, do we?  Not a big fan of this type of comment.  It's insulting to DMK and to TD at the same time.

It would be more fair to say that I chose not to pursue the job after taking a look.  No guarantee I would have been hired.  And, perhaps David chose wisely ... at least his project got finished, and presumably, he was paid in full!

[Paul Jones]

Tom,  how many courses did you "Never Got To Build"?  What is the percentage of courses bidding/designing on and actually get to build ?

Thanks,
Paul

[Tom_Doak]

Paul:

The past couple of years have dragged that percentage down for everybody.

For myself, based on this, I would guess we wind up building +/- 50% of the courses where we actually sign a contract.  If you include the courses that I tried to get and failed, it's probably down to 35-40%.  But, I don't throw my hat into the ring very often on jobs unless I think I have a reasonable shot to land them ... for architects who do, the latter percentage would be MUCH lower.

[Garland Bayley]

...
If that wasn't enough, my par-4 13th was a hole I don't think anyone would have argued over calling a "Cape" green.  It was a dogleg left along the side of a steep hill ... the green stuck out into the loop of a deep creek, like this.



Working our way back over the two ravines to the water's edge would probably have been a bit of an anticlimax.

How wide is the green site, and the approach to the green site? Would my best strategy as a 20+ handicapper be to hit a drive followed by three chip shots, and a two putt? It looks in the picture to be awfully narrow, and best approached with caution for the directionally challenged.

[Ronald Montesano]

GB,

I have to believe that the neck would have been all putting surface and collar... from the vantage point of the photo, I could see it playing like a reverse redan, with the ground feeding the ball in from the left.  Now, if the angle is deceiving and the hole actually feeds from the right, then my perspective is off.

[RJ_Daley]

A question for Tom... although I think over the years we may have asked in one way or another. I'm not sure if it was asked, what the reply may have been...

Tom, with all the contacts you have made over the years, of wealthy and well connected savvy investors, particularly land investors; if someone well positioned pointed you to a piece of great property for your own to acquire, would you consider having a go at building your very own 'home base' golf course as something you'd live near or on, and something that you may grow old tinkering and fiddling with things something like Pete Dye is said to do at Crooked Stick or Teeth of the Dog?  Would that be something to look forward to in your senior years, a showcase of your personal expression?

[Tom_Doak]

...
If that wasn't enough, my par-4 13th was a hole I don't think anyone would have argued over calling a "Cape" green.  It was a dogleg left along the side of a steep hill ... the green stuck out into the loop of a deep creek, like this.



Working our way back over the two ravines to the water's edge would probably have been a bit of an anticlimax.

How wide is the green site, and the approach to the green site? Would my best strategy as a 20+ handicapper be to hit a drive followed by three chip shots, and a two putt? It looks in the picture to be awfully narrow, and best approached with caution for the directionally challenged.

Garland:

This picture is from a big shoulder up to the right of the green.  The approach is in the foreground left, with the green sticking out to the end of the bluff.  The ideal tee shot played around the ravine in a relatively narrow space, that would leave a little pitch right down the cape ... but if you drove short or left, you'd have to pitch over the ravine (left in this photo) to get close to the hole, but you could always bail to the right (bottom of photo) if you were scared of holding the green.  It's not as shallow as it looks, probably 60-70 feet deep except at the very end.

[Tom_Doak]

A question for Tom... although I think over the years we may have asked in one way or another. I'm not sure if it was asked, what the reply may have been...

Tom, with all the contacts you have made over the years, of wealthy and well connected savvy investors, particularly land investors; if someone well positioned pointed you to a piece of great property for your own to acquire, would you consider having a go at building your very own 'home base' golf course as something you'd live near or on, and something that you may grow old tinkering and fiddling with things something like Pete Dye is said to do at Crooked Stick or Teeth of the Dog?  Would that be something to look forward to in your senior years, a showcase of your personal expression?

RJ:  Sure, if I had the money and could find the right ground, I would love to build a place of my own someday, without a client to answer to.  But, I don't know if it would really make me satisfied enough to retire and not keep working here and there.  And, with five kids to support and a small business to run, it's hard to find the time to put something like that together.

[Adam Clayman]

Tom, I'm curious if you'd be willing to comment about how some others, have reacted to this thread? Do you think they are just looking for any excuse to diss you? Jealousy?

I don't see how this thread is in any way unprofessional, do you?
Or maybe a better question is, If you were a member of the ASCGA, would you be able to start such a thread?

If you want to answer privately, I will understand, but, I'm all for putting it out there.


Also, I have a great opportunity for your own project. www.littlediamondclub.com 

That is, if you want to winter in Florida?