[Terry Lavin]

Briarwood was a bit of an oversight on my part.  It's surely as good as most on the list.  I've only played it once and enjoyed it.  It didn't "wow" me, but it's not much of a wow place.  It reminded me of a slightly longer and more interesting version of Ridge, which is probably damning with faint praise.  I know Shelly has a thick skin, so he'll appreciate me repeating the statement that I made to him on a couple occasions:  Nobody will take Briarwood seriously until the tree in front of the 18th green is cut down.  An absolute sacrilege!  It makes the course end on a bit of a joke.  I suppose it would be easier to forget if it were the seventh hole or somewhere else in the middle of the course, but it's Amateur Hour at its finest.  I thought that our friend Shelly would have gotten enough signatures on the petition by now, but all of us have our limitations!  There are three trees I've been lobbying for chopping at The Bev for a decade or so, unsuccessfully of course...

[J_ Crisham]

ActuallyPaul of the 39 rounds that I played in 2010 my hi was 92 and low round was 79. My index as I see it is about 10.1 Hardly at your level but I play a reasonable game.Not everyone can log 100 rounds as you do. Thanks for the compliments though-or are you being sarcastic? That would be so unlike you.   Take care,  Jack

[Matt_Ward]

Guys,

Just a great thread -- with a wealth of info -- I plan on being in the Chicago area sometime after July 4 and will be using this info as a guide.

thanks,

[Tim Nugent]

Pat,

Regarding cartpaths, I never really noticed any of them, again, if you're all over the course with the driver you might find a few, but I don't think they are any more intrusive than at many of the other "top ten" courses in the area.

[/quote/]


Never noticed cart paths on all 18 holes.  Oh, boy.

To your other point, they aren't more intrusive, but that's not the point here.  The point here is that the course, from DAY ONE, has been walking only.  Why the heck does a WALKING ONLY course need a cart path on EVERY HOLE?  Nonsensical, not to mention antithetical to its chosen way of playing.

Again, it's a good golf course and a difficult golf course if you play the tips and a fun course if you play the 6400 yard tees.  It's just not a threat, in my mind, to get in the Top Ten in town.

Terry, if it's a Walking only course , they aren't Cart Paths but rather Service paths for maintenance vehicles 

For you and Rob Bice, I'l bring my copy of Ross's Bob O Link Plan to dinner so you can see what was intended.

[Paul OConnor]

.

[C. Squier]

ActuallyPaul of the 39 rounds that I played in 2010 my hi was 92 and low round was 79. My index as I see it is about 10.1 Hardly at your level but I play a reasonable game.Not everyone can log 100 rounds as you do. Thanks for the compliments though-or are you being sarcastic? That would be so unlike you.   Take care,  Jack

Jack, please tell me you're being sarcastic by suggestiong O'Connor only plays 100 rounds a year.  He has that in by the end of June.  I expect to see the clocktower missing before the day the Jag isn't in the parking lot. 

[Jud_T]

Guys,

Just a great thread -- with a wealth of info -- I plan on being in the Chicago area sometime after July 4 and will be using this info as a guide.

thanks,

Now, hold the phone there, pardna...

Are you seriously telling us that you intend to explore the true breadth and depth of Chicagoland courses and to add a vast multitude of its hidden gems to your golfing resume?  Wake up and smell the coffee, amigo:  it'll take a loooooooonnnnngggggg time to truly analyze and play the huge variety of architectural styles and playing characteristics that Chicagoland has to offer ... you'd better have a man-sized appetite for the sheeeeeeeeeer volume of it all if you plan to tackle golf in the Windy City mano-y-mano ...        

As well as a serious tolerance for alcohol, wagering on golf and the exquisitely timed gibe of the true gamesmen.  

[Matt_Ward]

Shivas:

Let me break the news to you -- OK.

My brother went to DePaul and married a fine gal from Oak Lawn who went to Mundelein.

Been to the Windy City plenty of times -- more than most here on GCA. I have also played a good sampling of the key courses mentioned.

I like the info presented here and likely will set my sights on a few courses that many have cited.

I have a week's time so that's plenty to fill my time frame.

[Phil McDade]

Guys,

Just a great thread -- with a wealth of info -- I plan on being in the Chicago area sometime after July 4 and will be using this info as a guide.

thanks,

Bad timing to boot, as well, Matt; if you come in January/February, you could perhaps be invited to play Chicago's most exclusive club.

[Matt_Ward]

Phil:

Thanks -- I may stop by then after the Bears say adios from the NFL Playoffs.

Shivas:

My sister-in-law passed away a few years back. Sad to say -- if she lived she would have been 65 now.

[Dan Moore]

Old Elm is special in so many ways.  The only Colt designed Ross built course in the world that is 90% exactly like it was when it opened for play in 1914.  In recent years they have been restoring bunkers that were removed over the years.  Not the toughest course by any means, but the spectacular greens keep you honest, and it just may be the best walk around. 

Very curious about Glen Oak and its Bendelow/Macintosh/Langford roots. 

[Terry Lavin]

Inspired by Matt Ward's kind words, I've retooled the first post to include descriptions of my top ten and a tease for the clubs to avoid if you're passing through town, which I'll never publish, Bunky.

[PThomas]

and married a fine gal from Oak Lawn who went to Mundelein.

Mundelein College?  That's a small school.  How old is she?  I knew a gal from Oak Lawn that went to Mundelein.  Guarantee she went to Mother McCauley... 

but now all the cool girls like my daughters go to Marist

[Jud_T]

Inspired by Matt Ward's kind words, I've retooled the first post to include descriptions of my top ten and a tease for the clubs to avoid if you're passing through town, which I'll never publish, Bunky.

Terry,

Agreed on #2 at Knollwood.  One of my favorite holes in town.  Which is the weak hole you're referring to?  Also, I'll bet I can name a few of the stinkers privately over cocktails....

[Terry Lavin]

Inspired by Matt Ward's kind words, I've retooled the first post to include descriptions of my top ten and a tease for the clubs to avoid if you're passing through town, which I'll never publish, Bunky.

Terry,

Agreed on #2 at Knollwood.  One of my favorite holes in town.  Which is the weak hole you're referring to?  Also, I'll bet I can name a few of the stinkers privately over cocktails....

It's the short par-4 on the back nine, with the goalpost willows and the irrigation pond off to the left of the tee.  It is straight out of White Pines or Cog Hill #1, for Chrissakes.  The irony of that hole is that it looks like they ran out of land and Knollwood is built on 265 acres.  The members thus far won't let Foster fix the hole; they've gotten used to its cheesy presence, I guess!

[Jud_T]

Yup, #13 I believe...I remembered it as you were typing....

[Terry Lavin]

Knollwood has been dumbed down over the years by well-meaning Committee guys, but Foster's work is rectifying most of that.  The bunker work is nothing short of spectacular, maybe the best bunker re-do in Chicago.  He rebuilt the tee boxes and re-cut fairway lines in the fall, putting angles back where they had disappeared.  Maybe the best example of that is the par 3 (12?) over the water, where the club moved the tee thirty yards to the left, creating a dead-straight shot to the green, that took a lot of the demands from the tee shot.  Now, it's back where it used to be and maybe a little further back, which brings all of the trouble long and left back into play.

I agree that it's not a knock your socks off kind of experience, but it is well worth a spot in the Top Ten.

Question:  I just put Lost Dunes, Point O'Woods and Dunes Club in the Honorable Mention section.  Do they belong in a Chicago list or am I right to keep them out on a geographic basis.  Just asking, because Lost Dunes would surely claim a spot in the top ten if included, in my judgment.  Dunes is just a nine-holer so I don't think that counts and Point would be just outside of my list.

[Jud_T]

I'd say it's not a part of the metro Chicago area, although anyone coming for a visit should try and include those courses as they can be done as a day trip.  If you start including harbour country then you've got to consider places like Erin Hills as well.  And I definitely would include the Dunes....

[George Freeman]

Knollwood has been dumbed down over the years by well-meaning Committee guys, but Foster's work is rectifying most of that.  The bunker work is nothing short of spectacular, maybe the best bunker re-do in Chicago...

Terry,

Do you know when the bunker work was started and/or completed?

[George Freeman]

Also, I assume your (Terry) Top 10 in Chicago list is ordered based on your overall preference?

Thanks,

George

[Terry Lavin]

The bunker work at Knollwood was completed in the Fall of '09 and the course played with the bunkers all last summer.  The work on the tees was mostly completed last fall and should be playable this coming season.

Yes, the top ten is just my preference based on my many times playing the courses listed.

I'm comfortable with the Michigan courses not being listed in a Chicago's Top Ten list, but I don't want anybody thinking that I'm "dissing"  them...

[PCCraig]

Terry:

Just noticed your new updated top 10. Most of it makes sense to me and quite frankly much of could flip flop depending on your preferrences.

However, I have to ask, North Shore in your top 10?!? I've played it upwards of 20 times over the years growing up close to it, and it's fine, but I really can't tell if there is a good golf course in there under all the trees. I have liked some of Rick Jacobson's work, but North Shore would be in much better shape with a full blown restoration done by someone who has studied C&A's work. But that'll never happen as it's membership thinks the golf course is amazing. I've just never seen it myself.

[PThomas]

never mind

[Terry Lavin]

Pat,

I don't think there's that much of a tree problem at North Shore.  Based on my many plays there, I'd say that the only tree issue is that a number of the holes got straightened out because of too much planting, but there seems to be enough room to play everywhere despite the trees that are still there.  There's a short dogleg par-4 on the back that needs some clear-cutting but otherwise I don't think it gets in the way.  That hole, in fact, is the only arguably bad hole, out there and it could be fixed quickly with a chainsaw.  The second hole is underwhelming, but would make a phenomenal long par-4 if they ever had a mind to change it a little bit.  I think it's a terrific course.

[Phil McDade]

Ask ten people who've played everywhere in Chicago to list their Top Ten in town and the lists will look remarkably similar.  Here's mine.

10.  Flossmoor:  This is a bit of a stretch, but because I was a longtime member at Flo-Mo, I had to stick it in the list.  Even before Ray Hearn retooled Flossmoor recently, it was a tremendous track with amazing history.  They hosted the PGA back in the 20's and Bobby Jones once carded seven straight 3's, including an eagle at the tenth.  The front side is pretty flat with only a creek and a couple irrigation ponds, but the back is a hilly plot with Butterfield Creek jutting in and out on a bunch of the holes.  The four finishers are really good, but would be better if 17 was converted to a par 5 and 18 to a par-4.  Without a doubt this is the best set of 18 greens in the Chicago district, with a lot of internal contour and side to side break, as compared with the standard, rust-belt back to front tipping.

See (OK, one-time play only), I really liked the ying and yang of 17 and 18 at Flossmoor. That half-par, son-of-a-b...tch 17th -- just a tough old dog doing awful things to your card near the end of the round, then a chance to recoup a stroke at the closing hole (which has a trickier-than-it-looks fallaway green). Hearn's work on that corridor of 16, 17, and 18 ought to be studied by every single green committee chair of a parkland course in the Midwest to see what opening up interior views through a major tree clearance can do for a course.

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