[Jud_T]

yes, he does.  Had a great time there right off the bus from the redeye.  hit a couple balls into a ratty net, then hooked up with my elderly, obviously grossly hungover caddy.  After breaking out the requisite flask of Scotch about the third hole for those of us running on 2 hours sleep, one of the other loopers suggested I best offer Old Jimmy a nip otherwise he might not make it round...after warming his cockles several times Old Jim, in the heaviest brogue you can possibly imagine, inquired where else we'd be playing on our trip.  I proceeded to rattle off the list as he nodded knowingly.  When I came to one course in particular, he stopped me, and in a serious tone said "Aye, Portmarnock, it's a dogtack." (pronounced DAWGTRAAACCCHHHHHHT).  Ever since we've referred to a myriad of courses, both good and bad, with this moniker...

[John Kavanaugh]

Jud,

Did you ever post a bio on the site?  Since we are going to get this wonderful exercise twice a week perhaps future participants could start with the ten reasons we should care what they think.   

[Jud_T]

John,

No I haven't.  Here's the quick and dirty...50 year old father of 2. Wife Nancy, Daughter Emma 15, and Son David 11.  Fixed-Income Hedge Fund Manager (take that Choi!).  Went to Michigan undergrad-as if anyone doesn't know that by now- got a BS in English Lit.  Traded on the Chicago Board of Trade prior to getting my MBA at University of Chicago Business School, where I met my bride.  Went to work with the dreaded scum on Wall Street.  Have spent time growing up and living in Chicago and New York with brief stops in the burbs of San Fran and Lawton, OK (Don't ask)...Unfortunately didn't pick up the game in earnest until I was 34 with an infant in tow and living in midtown Manhattan.  Constantly taking lessons and working on swing changes.  Currently an 18 HDCP.  I've been fortunate through friends and business associates to have played a lot of well known tracks. It may not always be pretty, but I play quick and I get the etiquette of the game. Also try to read whatever I can on the subject.  I know some may not value my opinion as highly as someone who's been beating balls since their balls dropped (you should see my 11 year-old's swing action), but I feel I bring a needed dose of perspective of the average golfer to the proceedings.  Happy to answer any further questions (That doesn't mean YOU Jones... )

[John Kavanaugh]

Thanks, you are younger than I thought but at least now I understand why you have played Old Elm and not Beverley.

[John Kavanaugh]

Have you ever won or made the finals in a member guest?

[Jud_T]

Was in the hunt several times at my old club, but it was a brutal format (Best Ball day 1 and both balls day 2, sum of three).  Took home some money at an event at Skokie.

[Sean Leary]

Have you ever won or made the finals in a member guest?

Gotta know why you ask this, JK....

[John Kavanaugh]

Have you ever won or made the finals in a member guest?

Gotta know why you ask this, JK....

Jud obviously has a set of balls and is intelligent which made me question what kind of 18 handicap he could be.  He is the kind you want as a partner in a member guest, not that there is anything wrong with that.

[Tim Bert]

John K -

Put me down for another +1 on the turf conditions at Kingsley.  I have limited experience at the places you referenced - 4 trips to Bandon, 2 days on one trip to Sand Hills, and 3 different short visits to Ballyneal and 2 rounds at Wild Horse.  Based on my limited experience, I actually found the turf to be firmer and faster at Bandon than at the other two, which I believe is the opposite of your perpective but with as few trips that I've made it could certainly just be timing.  Three of my four trips to Bandon were in late June which is the driest time of the year and probably influenced the firm and fast but even when I played in heavy rain this May the courses were very fast.

In my two trips to Kingsley, I'd put that turf up there with anywhere I've played in the US other than Bandon when it comes to an ideal meld of firm and fast in the fairways and greens.  Not going to proclaim better or worse than Sand Hills or Ballyneal because again my experiences are limited, but certainly in the same neighborhood.

Based on most of your pots and experiences that I've read, I think that you'd love the course unless your contrarian nature felt it was getting too much love on this site.  You'd probably still prefer Riviera. 

[John Kavanaugh]

I am amazed at the comparisons in turf at Kingsley to that at Ballyneal.  Is Kingsley fescue?

I have considered joining Kingsley as it is only 500 miles from home, it is even closer for Colton. I am skeptical considering I have never heard this argument even from my buddy who was/is a member of both places.

[Tom_Doak]

John (and Tim):

Agreed that the turf at Kingsley is excellent.  The only fescue surface I've seen as good as that is at The Renaissance Club.

But, the climate in the Sand Hills is far more extreme than here in Traverse City.  No nice winter blanket; bitter cold and wind in the winter; way hotter in the summer, plus wind.  You have to be shooting for something different out there.  I could not be happier with how Ballyneal played when I was there in the fall.

Also, Kingsley is fescue fairways but bent greens, as at Sand Hills.  Ballyneal is fescue throughout, though there is a little bit of many other grasses in the mix there.

[JC Jones]

John,

No I haven't.  Here's the quick and dirty...50 year old father of 2. Wife Nancy, Daughter Emma 15, and Son David 11.  Fixed-Income Hedge Fund Manager (take that Choi!).  Went to Michigan undergrad-as if anyone doesn't know that by now- got a BS in English Lit.  Traded on the Chicago Board of Trade prior to getting my MBA at University of Chicago Business School, where I met my bride.  Went to work with the dreaded scum on Wall Street.  Have spent time growing up and living in Chicago and New York with brief stops in the burbs of San Fran and Lawton, OK (Don't ask)...Unfortunately didn't pick up the game in earnest until I was 34 with an infant in tow and living in midtown Manhattan.  Constantly taking lessons and working on swing changes.  Currently an 18 HDCP.  I've been fortunate through friends and business associates to have played a lot of well known tracks. It may not always be pretty, but I play quick and I get the etiquette of the game. Also try to read whatever I can on the subject.  I know some may not value my opinion as highly as someone who's been beating balls since their balls dropped (you should see my 11 year-old's swing action), but I feel I bring a needed dose of perspective of the average golfer to the proceedings.  Happy to answer any further questions (That doesn't mean YOU Jones... )

Don't worry, Jud.  Anyone who has a degree from the University of Chicago in anything has a green light in my book.

[Jud_T]

JC,

Thx. But frankly it's much more impressive if someone went there for undergrad.

[Jim Franklin]

Have you played Rock Creek? Do you ever tee it up with Shivas in Chi-town?

[Mike Hendren]

Interesting, and thanks.   Two schools of thought if I'm going to literally play the same course every day:   1) it's an easy walk, has architectural merit (don't they all), features occasional quirk, is not too taxing tee to green and I can generally play it with one ball; or 2) it has  architectural subtleties and nuances that yield infinite epiphanies.

I'd choose the former and might include courses like Aiken Golf Club, LuLu Country Club, Blue Mound Golf and Country Club, Tacoma Country and Golf Club, North Berwick's West Links, Pine Needles and Palmetto Golf Club just to name a few.

Bogey

[Jud_T]

Have you played Rock Creek? Do you ever tee it up with Shivas in Chi-town?

Jim,

Haven't made it out to Rock Creek yet, but obviously have heard great things about it.  I have teed it up with Shivas and in addition to being quite a character, he's a real gentleman on the course (and as I recall was hitting laserlike long irons that day)...watch out for him on a curling rink near you!

[Jud_T]

Bogey,

Good call on Pine Needles, probably should have included it toward the end of the list.  North Berwick and Blue Mound are on my short list of must-sees as well...

[Jim Franklin]

Have you played Rock Creek? Do you ever tee it up with Shivas in Chi-town?

Jim,

Haven't made it out to Rock Creek yet, but obviously have heard great things about it.  I have teed it up with Shivas and in addition to being quite a character, he's a real gentleman on the course (and as I recall was hitting laserlike long irons that day)...watch out for him on a curling rink near you!

Thanks. Shivas is a good man and friends with my brother-in-law (Raymond James bond trader). Rock Creek is my favorite Doak design so I believe you will enjoy it.

[Jud_T]

Jim,

Have you played Pac Dunes? If you have and you still prefer RCCC that's really saying something...

[Tim Nugent]

John (and Tim):

Agreed that the turf at Kingsley is excellent.  The only fescue surface I've seen as good as that is at The Renaissance Club.

But, the climate in the Sand Hills is far more extreme than here in Traverse City.  No nice winter blanket; bitter cold and wind in the winter; way hotter in the summer, plus wind.  You have to be shooting for something different out there.  I could not be happier with how Ballyneal played when I was there in the fall.

Also, Kingsley is fescue fairways but bent greens, as at Sand Hills.  Ballyneal is fescue throughout, though there is a little bit of many other grasses in the mix there.

Tom, curious, you seem to have done a lot of fescue courses, what do you attribute the high marks at Kingsley and RC to?  They seem to be different climates.

[Jim Franklin]

Jim,

Have you played Pac Dunes? If you have and you still prefer RCCC that's really saying something...

I have played Pac Dunes and loved it, but prefer RCCC. Both are in my personal Top 10 along with Old Macdonald so they are really close. Sand Hills is right there too so you need to see that as well.

[Sean Leary]

Jim,

Have you played Pac Dunes? If you have and you still prefer RCCC that's really saying something...

I have played Pac Dunes and loved it, but prefer RCCC. Both are in my personal Top 10 along with Old Macdonald so they are really close. Sand Hills is right there too so you need to see that as well.

Jim,

Surprised you like RCCC more than Sand Hills and Pac Dunes. I liked it a lot but had it a step below that level....

[Jim Franklin]

Jim,

Have you played Pac Dunes? If you have and you still prefer RCCC that's really saying something...

I have played Pac Dunes and loved it, but prefer RCCC. Both are in my personal Top 10 along with Old Macdonald so they are really close. Sand Hills is right there too so you need to see that as well.

Jim,

Surprised you like RCCC more than Sand Hills and Pac Dunes. I liked it a lot but had it a step below that level....

I thought RCCC was the funnest course I had played maybe ever. It was a blast from beginning to end. It played firm and fast and the greens rolled beautifully. I may have played it on a perfect day, but I still rank it ahead of the other two.

[Eric Smith]

Jud,

Thanks for the lists.

What were your initial thoughts after playing Kingsley for the first time?

What moves you the most about the place?

[Jud_T]

Eric,

We flew up for the day from the PGA at Oakland Hills and were just blown away by the place.  The dunes there have to be seen to be believed.  Even now when I first head up to the first tee, it's quite a feeling.  Take that with the fantastic routing and playing surface combined with the low-key relaxed atmosphere of the place and it's a winner.  There's simply nothing quite like it, particularly within driving distance of Chicago. And they'll be playing the Michigan fight song on the range come July 4th....

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