[William_G]

No carts, no cash!

Don't worry Tim. They take credit cards at Chambers Bay just like they do at that other cartless place in the PNW, Bandon Dunes.

Garland/Gambers...forget about Bandon as a comp to Chambers, because as you know Bandon is the best golf resort in the world.

Beach Loop, a par 3, 12 hole course is now being built as their 5th or 6th or 7th course depending on whether you count Shortys or the Sheep Ranch.

What will the green fee be for 12 holes at Beach Loop, LOL?

Thanks  

[Garland Bayley]

... because as you know Bandon is the best golf resort in the world.

...

No, you silly duck. Casa de Campo is the best golf resort in the world. Bandon was just built by a bunch of Pete Dye wanna bes.

[William_G]

hahaha, Go Ducks!

[Tim Leahy]

No carts, no cash!

Don't worry Tim. They take credit cards at Chambers Bay just like they do at that other cartless place in the PNW, Bandon Dunes.

But they will never get mine, because they don't allow carts.

[Sean Leary]

Garland,

You're comparing apples to oranges with the Bandon v CB.  Two completely different models.  The purpose of a muni is to provide affordable golf to the masses, and $175/round ain't that.

BTW, I haven't knocked the course itself at all.  From what I've seen, it looks like a great place.  But I am certainly questioning their business model.

Greg,

The masses are paying $49 green fees right now. For the quality of golf there that is pretty affordable.

Off hand I know of only one other municipality that has regular munis and a premium muni. That would be Bismarck ND, where the regular munis are getting an $18 green fee, and Hawktree is getting $70. Don't know exactly what the green fee goes to for the summer at Chambers Bay, because the information is not on their website. They do give $75 for April and May.

If you go to Chambers Bay, you did not put up any of the money to build the place, you are not obligated to carry any of the debt through your water and sewage district, so your playing there is very much analogous to your playing at Bandon. The quality of the golf is comparable, so where's you reluctance for paying $175 coming from?

Garland,

The masses aren't playing golf right now due to the weather....And that $49 dollars is only for Pierce County Residents and only Monday to Thursday. If I were to play as a Seattle resident right now its around $81 bucks after taxes on a weekend. Too high IMO. And in February it goes to $107. Seems like a lot to me.

[Sean Leary]

No carts, no cash!

Don't worry Tim. They take credit cards at Chambers Bay just like they do at that other cartless place in the PNW, Bandon Dunes.

But they will never get mine, because they don't allow carts.

Honestly Tim, thats your loss, not theirs. Carts would never work there because of the grass.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,

You're comparing apples to oranges with the Bandon v CB.  Two completely different models.  The purpose of a muni is to provide affordable golf to the masses, and $175/round ain't that.

BTW, I haven't knocked the course itself at all.  From what I've seen, it looks like a great place.  But I am certainly questioning their business model.

Greg,

The masses are paying $49 green fees right now. For the quality of golf there that is pretty affordable.

Off hand I know of only one other municipality that has regular munis and a premium muni. That would be Bismarck ND, where the regular munis are getting an $18 green fee, and Hawktree is getting $70. Don't know exactly what the green fee goes to for the summer at Chambers Bay, because the information is not on their website. They do give $75 for April and May.

If you go to Chambers Bay, you did not put up any of the money to build the place, you are not obligated to carry any of the debt through your water and sewage district, so your playing there is very much analogous to your playing at Bandon. The quality of the golf is comparable, so where's you reluctance for paying $175 coming from?

Garland,

The masses aren't playing golf right now due to the weather....And that $49 dollars is only for Pierce County Residents and only Monday to Thursday. If I were to play as a Seattle resident right now its around $81 bucks after taxes on a weekend. Too high IMO. And in February it goes to $107. Seems like a lot to me.

Sean,

I put up the $49, because today is Tuesday. I didn't check whether they are closed on account of the weather. I played each of the last three days at my club here in WA, so the weather is of little concern to me. You clearly know you are paying a higher rate, because you are not paying the taxes and fees that support CB. Just like you pay $250 at Bandon, because you did not pay to develop it either.

The problem I am getting at is that some people have a closed mind about what a muni is, and what you should pay to play one. Clearly the open minded people of North Dakota have figured out that you can pay between 3 and 4 times as much to play a muni if the quality is there to justify it. Likewise the open minded people that play at Bethpage.

[Sean Leary]

Garland,

I am just saying that most people in general are not playing golf around here because it has been under 30 degrees for 2 weeks. And those that aren't enough to fill the tee sheet at 80 bucks a pop. Or 55 bucks a pop in Pierce county on Tuesday. The million dollars that they need to clear to pay off the bond is the issue. Just can't see how that is possible in this environment.

Have you been to Bandon yet? If not why not? (maybe you have but for some reason I thought you hadn't)

[Garland Bayley]

Sean,

I haven't been. The knees have been giving me problems, so when opportunities presented themselves, I had to pass. I now take Glucosamine religiously and the knees have co-operated very well this winter. I almost went last weekend, but the wife nixed it.

[Tim Leahy]

No carts, no cash!

Don't worry Tim. They take credit cards at Chambers Bay just like they do at that other cartless place in the PNW, Bandon Dunes.

But they will never get mine, because they don't allow carts.

Honestly Tim, thats your loss, not theirs. Carts would never work there because of the grass.

Carts seem to work just fine at Kiawah and they have the same kind of grass.

[Garland Bayley]

No carts, no cash!

Don't worry Tim. They take credit cards at Chambers Bay just like they do at that other cartless place in the PNW, Bandon Dunes.

But they will never get mine, because they don't allow carts.

Honestly Tim, thats your loss, not theirs. Carts would never work there because of the grass.

Carts seem to work just fine at Kiawah and they have the same kind of grass.

I'm not sure you can be taken seriously on this website by making claims that fescue is the grass of choice on Kiawah island.

[SB]

The management company, Kemper, operates under a management contract, which means they are paid a monthly fee to oversee the course level staff.  Those fees are generally relatively small and are competitively bid and there are a lot of companies that bid for that type of work.  I highly doubt they are being "unduly enhanced".  In any event they are probably directly responsible for bringing in the big tournaments, meaning they are paying for themselves.

[William_G]

No carts, no cash!

Don't worry Tim. They take credit cards at Chambers Bay just like they do at that other cartless place in the PNW, Bandon Dunes.

But they will never get mine, because they don't allow carts.

Honestly Tim, thats your loss, not theirs. Carts would never work there because of the grass.

Carts seem to work just fine at Kiawah and they have the same kind of grass.

I'm not sure you can be taken seriously on this website by making claims that fescue is the grass of choice on Kiawah island.

Garland,

What?

I realize you are approaching 10,000 posts here, but have you really never visited Bandon Dunes?

And power carts do suck by the way.

Thanks.

William Grieve

[Don_Mahaffey]

The management company, Kemper, operates under a management contract, which means they are paid a monthly fee to oversee the course level staff.  Those fees are generally relatively small and are competitively bid and there are a lot of companies that bid for that type of work.  I highly doubt they are being "unduly enhanced".  In any event they are probably directly responsible for bringing in the big tournaments, meaning they are paying for themselves.

Sorry, not buying. They get paid a fee, make $$$ on the back end of almost every purchase and have no equity position thus no risk. They get paid whether the job is done well or not. And I'm amazed beyond belief that more courses are going to the big management companies. It can be done so much better but for some crazy reason owners think they are avoiding risk when all they are really doing is dividing up the pie even more under some guise of volume buying and still retaining most of the downside.
Golf really needs to wise up.

[SB]

The management company, Kemper, operates under a management contract, which means they are paid a monthly fee to oversee the course level staff.  Those fees are generally relatively small and are competitively bid and there are a lot of companies that bid for that type of work.  I highly doubt they are being "unduly enhanced".  In any event they are probably directly responsible for bringing in the big tournaments, meaning they are paying for themselves.

Sorry, not buying. They get paid a fee, make $$$ on the back end of almost every purchase and have no equity position thus no risk. They get paid whether the job is done well or not. And I'm amazed beyond belief that more courses are going to the big management companies. It can be done so much better but for some crazy reason owners think they are avoiding risk when all they are really doing is dividing up the pie even more under some guise of volume buying and still retaining most of the downside.
Golf really needs to wise up.

Management companies provide a fee for service, which is to oversee the course level staff.  They never pretend to take any risk and the reason that they are hired is because the owner can't or doesn't want to oversee the operations of a golf course.  There are a lot of facilities where the value of a management company can certainly be questioned, but for course like this, I'd absolutely want someone other than an Assistant Parks Director making decisions on how to run a world class golf course.

[Adam Clayman]

Tim L.- The doctor is correct. The turf at bandon is all fescue. At CB it's mostly fescue. At Kiawah, the surface is nowhere near the same. But besides that, carts are not used without a medical reason at Kiawah. Or, at least they weren't 34 days ago.

Fescue can handle limited cart traffic. But, it is much more sensitive than other grasses. And if it gets too hot, fuhghetaboutit!

It is an interesting balance about Management companies. It is likely true that without them CB wouldn't have been selected so early for national championships. There's likely a valuable lesson learnt from this case, and hopefully it will be another, or good enough, reason why courses that should be considered for championships, should be well seasoned, no matter how good their terrain is, pre-construction.

[Don_Mahaffey]

So management companies are a reason courses are selected for major championships? Really? Since when? Was Bethpage or Torrey managed by a large management company?

As far as the parks director calling the shots, I agree that professionals in golf course management should be making the decisions but I also don't think a green fee at a muni in WA should be paying the light bill in MD, FL or any other state.

What would I do in place of a management company? No one asked but I'll offer an idea nonetheless.
One thing I'll start with is I believe in sustainability and that includes economic sustainability for the local folks who pay the freight for a project like this, so keeping it local is important, to me at least.

I'd form a non profit group to manage the course. The non-profit would lease the course for $1 and put all revenues collected back into the course, be it for debt service or course operations until the debt is retired. Once the debt is retiered, all dollars needed to fund operations plus a percentage for capitol improvements would go to the course and only after those obligations were met would dollars start to flow into the general fund of whatever government entity owns the course.

The non profit would have some sort of charter that dictated there would be three Board of Director positions. One position would be held by a retired superintendent who worked in the region. Another would be held by a retired PGA Professional who also worked in the region. The third position would be held by a person the two of them select. The particulars of the length of term and filling vacancies could be hashed out by the first BOD but there would always be one retired Super, one retired PGA, and another industry professional on the BOD.
The BOD would be responsible for selecting the key management positions and for establishing a direction with goals and objectives, and for establishing a process to measure progress. The BOD would not be compensated but expenses would be paid. I believe you could find very capable people who would be willing to do this as long as it was clear who was in charge and the government stayed out of the way.
Every region in the country has experienced golf industry professionals who believe in giving back to the game and I think you could make something like this work as opposed to the deputy parks director calling the shots.

[Jim Nugent]

Here are the budget costs for Chambers Bay via Pierce County's published budget reports:

2004: $607,520
2005: $4,517,230
2006: $14,378,220
2007: $7,456,640

Didn't Chambers Bay open in June 2007?  That kind of suggests those budget costs for 2004 through 2006, plus part of 2007, are building costs.  If so, the $21 million figure looks more solid to me.  (.6 + 4.5 + 14.4 = 19.5, plus add some of the 7.45 from 2007 as well.)

Everyone keeps saying Bandon makes it because there are four courses. How conveniently everyone forgets they started with one, and were not suffering for a lack of golfers.

When Bandon only had one course, the greens fee was about half what it costs at CB.  The replay rate was about a quarter.  

Golfweek top modern has Chambers Bay ranked higher than Bandon Trails. So if you are willing to pay $250 to play Bandon Trails, you should be delighted to pay $175 to play Chambers Bay.

Here are the fees Bandon quotes for 2011, copied from their website today:

                    Jan    Feb    Mar      Apr    May - Oct    Nov 1 - 19    Nov 20 - Dec
Resort Guest    $75    $90    $120   $165    $225    $130    $75
Oregonian     $75    $90    $120   $165    n/a            $130    $75
Golf-only Guest  $100    $120 $160   $220    $275    $175    $100
Replay*            $40    $45    $60     $85    $110    $65      $40

While you can play for $250, even slightly more, you can also play for a whole lot less than $250.  For several months a year you can play for under $100, first time out.  Replay is as little as $40.  

So at Bandon you get more courses... that on average are higher rated, including one perennial top 10 in the U.S.... whose conditioning has been far better... that can cost a lot less.  btw, does anyone know how many rounds are played at Bandon each year?  

CB has to bring its costs down.  In any case, and even more so if I am right that the number of rounds played will not go up, and probably will take another hit this year.  If each Bandon course had to cover $6.8 million in costs each year, I bet that place would be in the red as well.  

[Garland Bayley]

...Here are the fees Bandon quotes for 2011, copied from their website today:

                    Jan    Feb    Mar      Apr    May - Oct    Nov 1 - 19    Nov 20 - Dec
Resort Guest    $75    $90    $120   $165    $225    $130    $75
Oregonian     $75    $90    $120   $165    n/a            $130    $75
Golf-only Guest  $100    $120 $160   $220    $275    $175    $100
Replay*            $40    $45    $60     $85    $110    $65      $40

While you can play for $250, even slightly more, you can also play for a whole lot less than $250.  For several months a year you can play for under $100, first time out.  Replay is as little as $40.  

So at Bandon you get more courses... that on average are higher rated, including one perennial top 10 in the U.S.... whose conditioning has been far better... that can cost a lot less.  btw, does anyone know how many rounds are played at Bandon each year?  
...

So what's your point Jim? That Bandon costs more than Chambers Bay all seasons all rates? We already knew that. We also know that Bandon has four courses, and that is a pretty good reason to take a golf vacation there. Therefore, it draws from the whole country, including the Seattle area. However, the quality of the golf including the conditioning at Chambers Bay is good enough to justify the green fee IMO when compared to Bandon for example.

Let's take another popular example on this website. Rustic Canyon. Rustic is famous for its reasonable green fee. Unfortunately, IMO it falls well short of Chambers Bay in my evaluation of the golf there. Rustic is fun, it is wide, it has interesting green complexes. But, it is not that memorable for me. Whereas Chambers Bay has all the fun, width, and green complexes plus 17 memorable holes with the single weakness of the 8th hole for me. Rustic Canyon has nothing approaching the likes of 1, 5, 6, 9, 10, 12, 13, 14, 16 for me to name a few.

[Garland Bayley]

No carts, no cash!

Don't worry Tim. They take credit cards at Chambers Bay just like they do at that other cartless place in the PNW, Bandon Dunes.

But they will never get mine, because they don't allow carts.

Honestly Tim, thats your loss, not theirs. Carts would never work there because of the grass.

Carts seem to work just fine at Kiawah and they have the same kind of grass.

I'm not sure you can be taken seriously on this website by making claims that fescue is the grass of choice on Kiawah island.

Garland,

What?

I realize you are approaching 10,000 posts here, but have you really never visited Bandon Dunes?

And power carts do suck by the way.

Thanks.

William Grieve

Hey, I'm a boring engineer from State. What do you expect?

[Sean_A]

...Here are the fees Bandon quotes for 2011, copied from their website today:

                    Jan    Feb    Mar      Apr    May - Oct    Nov 1 - 19    Nov 20 - Dec
Resort Guest    $75    $90    $120   $165    $225    $130    $75
Oregonian     $75    $90    $120   $165    n/a            $130    $75
Golf-only Guest  $100    $120 $160   $220    $275    $175    $100
Replay*            $40    $45    $60     $85    $110    $65      $40

While you can play for $250, even slightly more, you can also play for a whole lot less than $250.  For several months a year you can play for under $100, first time out.  Replay is as little as $40.  

So at Bandon you get more courses... that on average are higher rated, including one perennial top 10 in the U.S.... whose conditioning has been far better... that can cost a lot less.  btw, does anyone know how many rounds are played at Bandon each year?  
...

So what's your point Jim? That Bandon costs more than Chambers Bay all seasons all rates? We already knew that. We also know that Bandon has four courses, and that is a pretty good reason to take a golf vacation there. Therefore, it draws from the whole country, including the Seattle area. However, the quality of the golf including the conditioning at Chambers Bay is good enough to justify the green fee IMO when compared to Bandon for example.

Let's take another popular example on this website. Rustic Canyon. Rustic is famous for its reasonable green fee. Unfortunately, IMO it falls well short of Chambers Bay in my evaluation of the golf there. Rustic is fun, it is wide, it has interesting green complexes. But, it is not that memorable for me. Whereas Chambers Bay has all the fun, width, and green complexes plus 17 memorable holes with the single weakness of the 8th hole for me. Rustic Canyon has nothing approaching the likes of 1, 5, 6, 9, 10, 12, 13, 14, 16 for me to name a few.

Doc

What you are forgetting is that Rustic has a top whack charge of $60 or $70 AND it is quite walkable.  I sure would be more enticed to tee it up there rather than CB for its top whack and from the coverage I saw on tv that course looks to be a harsh walk. 

Why was the county held on the hook for the mining cleanup?  Is it possible the mining company paid money for a cleanup at an earlier date, but left it to the county to do the job?  Or perhaps the county bought the land at a cheap rate knowing the cleanup had to be done?  It just seems an odd setup to me.

Ciao

[Rob_Waldron]

Don

What you describe has been put into place in Baltimore and Montgomery County MD. In both cases a "Not for profit" arm of the Government was formed to run a portfolio of golf courses. In both cases the overhead costs have escalated to a point where they are out of control. A typical management fee ranges from 3% to 5% of gross revenue. In the case of the Montgomery COunty Revenue Authority the total overhead from the supposed NFP was in excess of $1.2 million on revenues of $16 million. Had my firm had a chance to bid on the business we would have proposed fees in the $500K to $750K range including incentives. This would mean an additional $450K to $700K to put back into the courses or the County.

Baltimore City is in a similar predicament with similar overhead costs on half as many courses. Neither of these managment deals were ever put out to bid. The bottom line is Government has no place in golf operations. They can certainly provide capital to build and own but that should only be permitted under the guidance of experienced professionals.   

[Don_Mahaffey]

Rob,
 Really? They had a three man BOD made up of retired industry experts? Or, was it a BOD made up of golfers and others from the area that thought they knew how to run a golf course?
Most of the time these non-profit oversight entities are formed by the city golf management administrative employees so they can keep their jobs, sort of like the fox guarding the hen house. That is not what I'm saying here. I'm suggesting no director of this or that having anything to do with golf. I'm suggesting a three person BOD made up long time industry veterans who select the pro, super and other management positions if need be, then establishes a method of evaluation and measuring quality.
I've never seen it done that way. Have you?

[Jerry Kluger]

Didn't Phoenix try a not for profit to run Papago which was a total disaster.

I think a good comparison is Pasatiempo for a high end course and their rate is $220.  But I do believe they offer memberships to bring it down quite a bit.

The rates at Bandon in other than high season are reasonable but you are taking a big chance on weather and it takes quite a bit of time and effort to get there.  You could go in December and what happens if it is 40 degrees and raining - you still pay for the lodging and the golf isn't a whole lot of fun.

[Don_Mahaffey]

No Jerry, PHX used a golf association, the AGA, that promised the world and delivered a whole lot less. BTW, I predicted the negative outcome when it was announced that the AGA would be running the show.

Look, running a golf course isn't that difficult if you just keep it simple and don't overload at the top, which is what governments and associations do all the time. When you have all these administrative types involved they all have to justify their existence and they usually do it by spending money on really stupid stuff. Running a golf course well is about 5% management and 95% getting it done. Its not a stinking think tank.
By having a small board made up of industry veterans with a proven history of providing a quality golf experience you have all the expertise you need and you can keep all the dollars local which is where they belong.

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