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Murray Rose

Being a fan of all that is great about classic golf, there is a minefield of great courses that come to mind, most notable on the London sandbelt. Here lie some of the great works of Harry Colt. From playing these Berkshire and Surrey gems Colt's genius is showcased in many different areas. However, others are more inclined to appreciate the work he does on seaside courses, like Rye and Burnham and Berrow. But are the courses that include the factors Colt is famous for definitely his best ones, and, if so, are they truly obvious? Or is there a course that combines the two hand in hand? 

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Only two holes at Rye remain from Colt's course there, so that isn't it, and, likewise, Burnham has a lot of mixed input.


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Being a fan of all that is great about classic golf, there is a minefield of great courses that come to mind, most notable on the London sandbelt. Here lie some of the great works of Harry Colt. From playing these Berkshire and Surrey gems Colt's genius is showcased in many different areas. However, others are more inclined to appreciate the work he does on seaside courses, like Rye and Burnham and Berrow. But are the courses that include the factors Colt is famous for definitely his best ones, and, if so, are they truly obvious? Or is there a course that combines the two hand in hand? 

Murray

What are the factors Colt is most famous for?  I don't understand the sentence.  What are the two?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Murray Rose

Sorry if it is sketchy... What remains to be a strength of Colt is how he can use the land to his advantage rather than moving earth. He also possessed the ability to reward a player's drive with a simpler second shot e.g 18th Burnham and Berrow or 11th Sunningdale New

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Although it was recently updated by a northern architect, I'd pit Colt's Park Club in Williamsville, NY against anything else he created.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Adam_Messix

  • Karma: +0/-0
There are so many great Harry Colt courses in the London Sandbelt that are fantastic examples of his work.  HOWEVER, if you really want to see the kind of genius he is, you have to go across the channel to France and take a look at Golf de St. Germain.  With the exception of the 17th and 18th holes, the property has no topographical movement and interest.  He was able to take this flat piece of property and was able to create a diverse and very interesting and fun golf course.  He also created the illusion of some movement by piling dirt in strategic locations and carved bunkers out of the dirt.  This also gave the course a great visibility component that other flat courses, particularly in Florida, lack.  St. Germain also has some wonderful greens and surrounding complexes.  Colt's genius really shows here; even more than at Swinley, Sunningdale, or St. George's Hill. 

Scott Warren

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Ronald:

How many Colts have you played, and how many were in England?

Tom MacWood

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Ron
Park is actually an Alison course. The majority of Colt & Alison courses in N. America are Alison courses. Colt designed Pine Valley, Old Elm, Hamilton and Toronto, and co-designed Indian Hills in Chicago. Alison was a great designed in his own right.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Sorry if it is sketchy... What remains to be a strength of Colt is how he can use the land to his advantage rather than moving earth. He also possessed the ability to reward a player's drive with a simpler second shot e.g 18th Burnham and Berrow or 11th Sunningdale New

Murray

I spose I am one to believe that Colt actually moved a lot of dirt around his green sites.  Perhaps not much in today's terms (probably becasue he didn't tend to move loads of dirt on fairways), but for 1915 it was a lot.  That isn't to say Colt didn't achieve a good balance of earth moving because I think he did.  However, because of his penchant for creating green sites and teh sheer number of courses he was involved means there is a certain degree of much of a muchness with Colt.  I am most impressed (not the same as saying they are his best or my favourites) with Colt's work on courses that aren't his originals - Burnham, Formby, Hoylake, Porthcawl, Southerndown, Lytham, Co Down etc.  He seems to have had a great eye for retaining must keep elements and holes even if they weren't in line with his look or philosophy while still stamping his mantra on these designs.  The one course I think may be an exception to this is Ganton.  Its difficult to tell what Colt did there even if one knwos because so many great archies worked on the course.  In any case, these courses strike me as a very good blend of modern and older architecture.  I am also impressed by Colt rarely getting it wrong in a design.  The guy just didn't make many mistakes and I think his willingness to judiciously push dirt around is the main reason why.  To some degree it means there will be a lot of "I have seen this before" for modern golfers who get around a decent amount, but Colt didn't have the lows of other designers not willing to push as much dirt around - such as Fowler.  Third, despite my much of as muchness comment Colt did take risks in design such as at Tandridge with its original crazy number of bunkers and with bunkering in general.  Finally, much like Braid, I think Colt was great at designing to a budget and purpose.  He could design championship golf or much more modest member courses with great charm and interest.  With very few exceptions (I can think of only one) Colt got the job done and beautifully. 

The above mentioned courses (as well as Muirfield and Portrush) aren't meant as a sllight to Colt's inland work in the least for I think it arguable that St Georges Hill is Colt's grandest creation - if we could see it today as was originally built.  Of course, many could also cite Swinley, Sunny New or a few others.  I have become very attracted to lesser Colts such as Southfield and Harborne and think they are just as good as Colt's big guns (without the obvious majesty) in their own deliberate way.  I guess what I am trying to say is it is awfully difficult to pigeon hole Colt or pick his best work because he had such an incredibly high standard. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Scott and Tom,

My delusion has been shattered...
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Dan Boerger

  • Karma: +0/-0
My understanding is that Colt helped design a couple holes at PV (most notably #10), but I wouldn't credit him with the design of the course.

I have not played enough Colt courses to form any thoughts as to what a Colt course is like, but I've never played a better set of par threes than those at Swinley.
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Dan
Actually I believe it is 5th hole that one of the club histories credits him with designing, but I don't think there is any doubt he did much more. Shortly after he was engaged by the club to design the golf course, and after he visited the site, he presented the club with master plan along with 18 individual hole plans. Throughout his career Colt took credit for the design of Pine Valley, and he did not take design credit lightly as illustrated by insistance Willie Park being given credit for Sunninghdale Old despite the fact Colt had overhaulled the course, and many were trying to give HSC credit for the remodelled course.

Murray Rose

Sorry if it is sketchy... What remains to be a strength of Colt is how he can use the land to his advantage rather than moving earth. He also possessed the ability to reward a player's drive with a simpler second shot e.g 18th Burnham and Berrow or 11th Sunningdale New

Murray

I spose I am one to believe that Colt actually moved a lot of dirt around his green sites.  Perhaps not much in today's terms (probably becasue he didn't tend to move loads of dirt on fairways), but for 1915 it was a lot.  That isn't to say Colt didn't achieve a good balance of earth moving because I think he did.  However, because of his penchant for creating green sites and teh sheer number of courses he was involved means there is a certain degree of much of a muchness with Colt.  I am most impressed (not the same as saying they are his best or my favourites) with Colt's work on courses that aren't his originals - Burnham, Formby, Hoylake, Porthcawl, Southerndown, Lytham, Co Down etc.  He seems to have had a great eye for retaining must keep elements and holes even if they weren't in line with his look or philosophy while still stamping his mantra on these designs.  The one course I think may be an exception to this is Ganton.  Its difficult to tell what Colt did there even if one knwos because so many great archies worked on the course.  In any case, these courses strike me as a very good blend of modern and older architecture.  I am also impressed by Colt rarely getting it wrong in a design.  The guy just didn't make many mistakes and I think his willingness to judiciously push dirt around is the main reason why.  To some degree it means there will be a lot of "I have seen this before" for modern golfers who get around a decent amount, but Colt didn't have the lows of other designers not willing to push as much dirt around - such as Fowler.  Third, despite my much of as muchness comment Colt did take risks in design such as at Tandridge with its original crazy number of bunkers and with bunkering in general.  Finally, much like Braid, I think Colt was great at designing to a budget and purpose.  He could design championship golf or much more modest member courses with great charm and interest.  With very few exceptions (I can think of only one) Colt got the job done and beautifully. 

The above mentioned courses (as well as Muirfield and Portrush) aren't meant as a sllight to Colt's inland work in the least for I think it arguable that St Georges Hill is Colt's grandest creation - if we could see it today as was originally built.  Of course, many could also cite Swinley, Sunny New or a few others.  I have become very attracted to lesser Colts such as Southfield and Harborne and think they are just as good as Colt's big guns (without the obvious majesty) in their own deliberate way.  I guess what I am trying to say is it is awfully difficult to pigeon hole Colt or pick his best work because he had such an incredibly high standard. 

Ciao

Sean,

    Colt is of course no exception to moving earth. However, on his true classics E.G Pine Valley or Swinley, it is as though the land chosen and the way in which he has routed the course has not needed much tinkering. Swinley has almost all of the greens in areas where they are naturally placed with gentle contours.
    Though there are many which are raised, they are very much sites waiting for greens to be laid upon them. I would probably say Swinley as my favourite as he has made length of virtually no consequence, and designed it with shotmaking and planning as the paramount ideas.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Murray

I too tend to be very impressed by courses which are low in yardage yet remain challenging and plenty difficult for nearly all golfers.  A player of my calibre often gets the sense that par is within range because there are birdies to be had - even though par is met only 1 in 100 goes.  Yes, Swinley is a prime example of this sort of course and I think it will rightfully remain a favourite golfers for many years to come.  My point on the previous post was that Colt has designed many lovely courses, some of which don't have the cache of his more famous designs, but in many ways are just as good if not quite as impressive - if you know what I mean. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

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