Symposium on Affordable Golf White Paper

[Richard_Mandell]

For those interested in some great Christmas reading, I have finished the white paper recounting the events of the First Symposium on Affordable Golf.  One can go to the following link for an executive summary and the pdf:  http://www.golf-architecture.com/lectures.php?id=10 or go to symposiumonaffordablegolf.com and click on white paper.

Let the discussions begin!

[Phil_the_Author]

Richard,

I hope it went well and wish that I could have been there. I look forward to reading the paper.

Phil

[Kris Shreiner]

Richard,

Holiday Greetings to you sir and to your comrades at the firm! I'll review with great interest what you've compiled.  Again, thank you for putting that wonderful two days together. I for one hope to attend again next year.

Bobby Weed, along with some other folks, was awarded the management and restoration duties of Palatka Golf Club, a wonderful, long-neglected,  Donald Ross municipal course in northeast Florida, this past summer. With a very spartan budget, coupled with community collaboration and support, his team is transforming this property into a model of affordable, quality golf. I'll continue to monitor progress, and if this project continues to progress in the positive manner currently being accomplished...they would be a super case study and presenting speaker possibility for next year's symposium.

Cheers,
Kris

[Chris Buie]

Richard has done a great service to the game with his Symposium.  The piece he wrote on his website is a well done summation - certainly worth a look. 

[rboyce]

Herndon is a course I use to play with friends when I lived in nearby Reston. It really is everything affordable golf should be. It's relatively open, short, well maintained, and affordable. I used to shoot in the low 80s there which boosted my golf ego as I am a mediocre golfer. Very mediocre, ya know? Haven't played it in quite a while, but maybe I'll try to snap some pics of it this spring and post them on gca.

[Jud_T]

Richard,

Great work!  The executive summary reads like a cliff notes of what many of us have been blathering on about on here for some time.  I'd say the full report is required reading for anyone posting or lurking on this website, not to mention anyone in the industry...

[John Shimony]

The symposium white paper on Mr. Mandel's website is excellent, very readable.  Thank you, Mr. Mandel and all those who contributed to what seems to have been an excellent discussion.

I have been avoiding engagement over course conditions with others at the club I joined this year because I am a golf-only recession-special new member at a well established country club.  The vast majority of able bodied members of the club ride in carts and demand lush conditions on a course that they do not realize is so over grown with trees that grass growing in many spots is a losing battle with mother nature.  The argument I've encountered in favor of the narrow playing corridors seems to be based mainly on keeping the course difficult.  The size and speed of the old Ross greens makes the course difficult enough.  Imagine how much more enjoyable the course could be for the high handicappers if they were given more room off the tee.  It's heart breaking because I really love the staff and members, the layout of the course, and its proximity to my house (less than a mile, about a 2 minute car ride or fifteen minute walk).

But I may reconsider my reluctance and bring up some of the topics discussed at the symposium with a few of the members and staff I have become friendly with and see what happens. 

 

[Mike_Young]

I just read Rich's paper and it is good. 
Two things....it is going to be very difficult to push much of this to many of our clubs because they will all think it needs to apply to the other guy and not them....and why is this??? 
Club manager, golf professional and Supt.....the associations that represent these employees have marketed themselves for years as working to better the employment opportunities and conditions for the members but instead they have placed unreal and unsustainable conditions on many places....  The paper sounds like it may not be time to blame the associations but it is time....clubs hire individuals not associations and good individuals will continue to have opportunities in this business...
An example..this year I saw a young supt inform an owner that he could not mow his greens with a triplex instead of a walker because it would hurt his personal reputation in the industry....I couldn't believe my ears and the guy was gone in 10 minutes...and still doesn't have a job....associations and college courses have instilled such....call me crazy but the American entreprenuer that will be operating golf in the futre could care less if a guy is a PGA professional or a GCSAA supt....he wants results and will get such...
Merry Christmas...

[Joe Bausch]

Very thoughtful post John.  Merry Xmas.

[Steve Lang]

   A good read indeed!

As one that grew up playing muni golf in the early 1960's, due to a benevolent city parks supt.  we could play for before 10AM, for 50 and later 75 cents a round.. that was affordable and there was money still left over for a Dudley's hot dog and drink or a soft ice cream at the halfway house..  2-4 times a week.. all from cutting grass at neighbors yards..  that world is long gone.

how is an average kid to make it happen these days?

[John Shimony]

Merry Christmas to you as well, Joe. 

Whenever i think of these sustainability and affordability issues I become discouraged because something inside of me believes that people with the general views held by those on this discussion board, regarding these topics, seem to be so few and far between amongst those employed by the golf industry and the vast majority of golfers.  This leads me to believe that associations, such as our local golf associations (the USGA seems to be going in the right direction), need to be convinced of the potential in the sustainability and affordability issues and they need to convince their member clubs through outreach. 

I'll take a look for myself but does anyone know what the buy in by regional golf associations has been?

[RSLivingston_III]

I am sure there are many club green committee members that need to read this, even though we know it would be an up hill challenge to make it happen.

Looking forward to seeing what new ideas, and modifications on ideas presented, come out in future meetings. Seems complete to me...

[Adam Clayman]

I have a question about one of the points.

Eliminate the frills and extravagances.

While this is unarguable, I was wondering what some of those frills are/were, at the type of course that would be interested in more affordable/sustainable golf? i.e Not Vegas's Mango misters etc

[Jason Hines]

Richard,

Thanks for making the white paper available, I will enjoy sending this to my golf friends as some type of documented validation with regards to all the points I have been trying to make over the last several years.

Seriously, the white paper touches on many different points that are currently relevant and of interest to me:

I have often wondered, does this industry really know it’s market?  My question is, to what degree is this white paper really fighting against the norm?  How many people are you truly going to lose if you ditch the flower beds lining the cart paths at the turn? I think the white paper addresses the societal shift with respect to family, time, money, but are these the only reasons that are influencing demand?  I don’t know these answers, but would definitely would want to know my starting point if I was trying to change the world.


In May of 1999, 4 of us from Omaha stopped by Gothenburg, NE and gave a guy sitting behind a card table on a folding chair, $35 each to play a great round of golf.  Even though I have since moved farther away, I still make it back every year.  I have always felt that their model could be emulated and even potentially taken to a different level.  Sand Hills golf has been a passion of mine ever since ’99 and I try and follow the goings on as much as possible and seriously considered joining the private clubs in the area.  With that being said, it is interesting to read this white paper and compare it to some of the current endeavors in that region.  The Prairie Club and Awarii Dunes come to mind.


I currently belong to a club that is in the black, original equity partners want out and are selling to a large golf management company.  Time to jump ship -- but according to this paper, am I going to jump only to find myself in the same predicament at another club? In my area, my choices are one of the landed gentry clubs or clubs that are still struggling with an old model that seem to be struggling with the subject of this paper.

Need a club that continues to promote golf playing with my family
Need a club that promotes fast play
Do not need a pool and banquet room
  
   Sounds like I need a true golf club?


These were just a few topics that stirred around in my post Christmas meal brain after reading the paper.  I have a customer in Charlotte and might try and combine the two with next years meeting if at all possible.

Thanks again Richard, well done.

Jason Hines
Olathe, KS

[Mac Plumart]

I am interested in helping/furthering the cause of golf.  Not really just the business of golf...or golf as an amenity to help simply sell real estate.  But the traditional game of golf and all its values.  I see that getting watered down if not totally lost.  I am seeking to further this cause in every way I can.  If you guys in leadership positions and/or positions of influence see a way that I can help please reach out to me via IM.

BUT if there are things all of us could be doing to help out affordable golf and further the traditional game of golf and the values inherent in the ideal game, please advise on this forum.  I think every little bit helps.

[Jeff Taylor]

So it was expected that a definition of "affordable" would not be reached. Why have the symposium?
Was golf played at the "affordable" resort where the symposium was held?
I got through 17 pages and could not read further. It seems that one must own something in order to take steps to make it affordable? I did not get that impression that those people were in attendance.
Maybe it would be helpful to look at golf like any other product, say clothing. There are many types of clothing and most all have access to it. Why would golf be different? Maybe golf is already affordable and shifting focus away from profits will only harm affordability.

[Mike_Young]

Jeff,
I think the conference was probably well intended and as they say..it was a start....which is good...but you do have a few good points...

1.  I agree regarding owning...I don't care to have a magazine writer, an association executive etc telling me how to operate or run a golf course efficiently...if possible please don't take that as a personal slam at any writer, executive etc that gave an opinion...

I think what many of us don't see is the courses that have no reason to have us see them....what does that mean?  It means they focus on a fifteen mile radius much like a local restaurant or other locally dependent business....I mean if you had a conference on affordble restaurant business and all the chains were to show up or the experts from the chains...you think the local dudes would be around...no way...

As this golf business thing sorts itself out we are going to see guys make good money with it....but as you say they will be owners who, bought at the right price, operate at the right price and are on site...they might have a golf pro...they might not...at least not in the shop...they will be the manager and they will have an efficient supt....IMHO the best suited guys to take advantage of the current situation are experienced golf supts that find the right place and buy a course...they have the ability to save more money than anyone in the business....and each time I have seen one take over they have been successful. When times are like they are now all the hype goes away...efficiencies and real operation takes over.....and if you take all the hype away from golf then it will be fine....JMO
And again....conference was a good idea....

[Kyle Harris]

I can play unlimited bowling in a league at the local bowling alley every Friday night from 6PM to 9PM for $15. EQUIPMENT PROVIDED

When the opportunity cost for golf approaches roughly $5-10 an hour, we've reached affordable.

I'm working on the assumption that time is ultimately more valuable than money.

[Kyle Harris]

Oh, and in the above bowling league - I'd most likely be treated with the same kindness and acceptance if I bowled a 150 series or a 750 series.

Make golf a reasonable way for people to spend their limited leisure time, and accept them as they learn to do it.

Ask yourself these questions:

Why would someone want to begin playing golf?
How much would you expect them to pay to learn the game to the point where they could fit in with the rest of the crowd?
How does that cost compare to other activities?

[Jeff Taylor]

Thank you Kyle for presenting a quantifiable definition of affordable. However, your definition differs from mine. So here we are, attempting to define something for multiple users that the users themselves may not agree with.

[Kyle Harris]

Thank you Kyle for presenting a quantifiable definition of affordable. However, your definition differs from mine. So here we are, attempting to define something for multiple users that the users themselves may not agree with.

Jeff:

I think we can advance the discussion by attempting to reach a quantifiable definition, however. I started a framework for consideration.

Do you at least agree that golf must present a viable opportunity cost to sustain itself?

I think that so long as there are multiple avenues of quantifiable affordability being explored the desired end can still be achieved.

[Jeff Taylor]

Thanks for the response Kyle.
I tend to differ from most people on these types of things. Golf and all other products already come with a framework for calculating opportunity costs. These products exist because they have passed the opportunity cost equation. Not all users have the same equation. Hence, not all strata of citizens will consume it in equal proportions. The question becomes "what problem are we talking about?" Is golf not currently sustainable? I cannot see anyone making that argument successfully.

[Kyle Harris]

Thanks for the response Kyle.
I tend to differ from most people on these types of things. Golf and all other products already come with a framework for calculating opportunity costs. These products exist because they have passed the opportunity cost equation. Not all users have the same equation. Hence, not all strata of citizens will consume it in equal proportions. The question becomes "what problem are we talking about?" Is golf not currently sustainable? I cannot see anyone making that argument successfully.

Jeff:

I see your point.

I agree that the issue is very much stratified. We will always have the top [arbitrary number to make the argument successful] percent sustaining a portion of the high end of golf.

However, and this is actually where I thought you were going with your point, I think this issue is also a very regional one. Here in Philadelphia, I am able to drive a little over an hour outside the city (and pass many places with a $80+ peak rate green fee) to have a reasonably similar golf experience for almost half the monetary cost. What are the factors that make the monetary cost that much different and how do the regional variances influence that? Are there other people like me making that drive out to, say, Reading, PA? (Are you lurking Ed Abrams?) How does regional demand influence the cost structure closer to home?

I also believe the issue centers around the supply side of the equation:

Are there too many facilities?
Which facilities will survive?
Which facilities will fail?
Is new construction needed?

I think we're reaching more middle ground between the two of us here, correct?

[Mike_Young]

Thanks for the response Kyle.
I tend to differ from most people on these types of things. Golf and all other products already come with a framework for calculating opportunity costs. These products exist because they have passed the opportunity cost equation. Not all users have the same equation. Hence, not all strata of citizens will consume it in equal proportions. The question becomes "what problem are we talking about?" Is golf not currently sustainable? I cannot see anyone making that argument successfully.

Jeff,
I will say that golf is not sustainable for player base they have today as an individual line item....and yet in order to be sustainable it has to operate profitably as a single line item....no RE subsidies....no golf subsidizing tennis or swim or fitness....

[Jeff Taylor]

Good stuff Kyle and Mike.

The cost of golf varies for as many reasons as there are cost components. Defining all of those components for urban and rural locations will take us a long time and probably won't get us any closer to solving this supposed problem. Which brings me to Mike's comment about subsidy. Like Mike, I prefer that products stand alone when it comes to profitability. Eventually we all get there anyway. I prefer to get there sooner. There are many kinds of subsidies and government run "affordable" golf is no more efficient than developer subsidized "affordable" golf. Both become temporarily affordable but not for the same people. Not wanting to be obstinate, but without a working definition of sustainability, we won't get very far. Given these constraints, if I had been in attendance at the symposium, I would have quickly been looking for reasons to get outside and play golf, regardless of the cost of greens fees.