[Mac Plumart]

Gambers...

I agree with you that maintenance practices have had a great effect on the game.

[RSLivingston_III]

It would seem to me that the bloody rake had more effect on bunker play than the sand wedge.
The advancement in green mowers had more effect than any putter invention.
The advancement in fairway mowing had more effect than groove technology, at least for shots from the fairway.

It would be interesting to know when the rake was invented and put into use.
I know the mower was invented in 1830, and mowers specifically for greens were in use by the end of the 19th century.
I don't buy your last point. Think face scoring and dimples.

[Ken Moum]

FYI - Over the years I have seen a few 60 degree-ish niblicks that would have dated to the twenties, so the Lob Wedge is NOT a new idea.

I have a bunch of old wedges, including at least two of the 1930s Wilson Pitching Iron that was clearly the progenitor of Sarazen's sand wedge.  And both of them are 60*.

I also have a three or four other wedges from the 40s and 50s that are 58* or more.

K

[Doug Siebert]

Wasn't Tom Kite the first PGA Tour pro to put the 4th wedge in the bag?
Certainly it made a great difference in his scoring average and winning percentage.

Why context the use of a club or architecture solely in the realm of the best PGA Tour pros.

The represent an extremely small percentage of people who play golf

Patrick,

Tom Kite's usage of the LW popularized it amongst amateurs.  It may have existed previously, but was pretty rare until people saw Kite using it to help him win on TV.  Sort of like how Nicklaus popularized that type of large headed putter he used to win the '86 Masters.

I suspect if Tiger won the 2011 US Open with an 80* wedge in his bag (it sounds ridiculous, but they actually do make such a thing) they'd start becoming common in people's bags by Labor Day weekend...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wasn't Tom Kite the first PGA Tour pro to put the 4th wedge in the bag?
Certainly it made a great difference in his scoring average and winning percentage.

Why context the use of a club or architecture solely in the realm of the best PGA Tour pros.

The represent an extremely small percentage of people who play golf

Patrick,

Tom Kite's usage of the LW popularized it amongst amateurs. 

Doug,

I knew a number of amateurs who used the L-Wedge before Kit's publicity.
I began carrying three wedges, P, S and L in 1985.

 It may have existed previously, but was pretty rare until people saw Kite using it to help him win on TV. 

When did Ping start producing L-Wedges ?

Sort of like how Nicklaus popularized that type of large headed putter he used to win the '86 Masters.

I suspect if Tiger won the 2011 US Open with an 80* wedge in his bag (it sounds ridiculous, but they actually do make such a thing) they'd start becoming common in people's bags by Labor Day weekend...

[Thomas Dai]

I've just found this 2010 thread and wanted to chime in by saying that since taking up hickory golf and using exclusively thin flanged niblick/mashies as my greenside bunker club(s) I now aim well away from bunkers with hickories in hand. These are original yee olde hickories and heads I'm using though, not modern reproduction ones with a more modern SW head on the end of a hickory shaft. With my yee olde hickories I take no chances at all when it comes to bunkers, aiming well away from them, whereas with modern equipment I do not fear bunkers in the slightest, often using them as a 'friend' rather than as a 'foe' in course management terms.

I've found that fairway bunkers with their normally lower height lips and bigger surface areas are okay with care with yee olde hickory heads. Picking the shot needs great skill though, strike the slightest bit fat with a narrow flanged iron and you stay in the bunker. The best method I've found for fairway bunkers is to play the shot off the back foot and hit down on the back of the ball without taking any sand behind the ball at all and trusted the loft on the club to get the ball over the lip.

Around the green where lips are usually higher, firm or slightly firm bunkers are, given soft hands and a decent unobstructed lie, just about okay with a narrow flange, but soft sand, especially if there's any depth to the soft sand, is extremely difficult to play from. Soft sand extraction is so difficult that an up-n-down or a near up-n-down is a matter of good fortune or a long putt holed so I therefore go along with the premise that the modern SW has hugely impacted GCA as following it's introduction what were once sandy hazards are no longer hazards. And yes, there is a maintenance aspect to this as well.

Someone above mentioned jokingly an 80* wedge. That might be the answer with a very narrow flanged club from a greenside bunker - played off the back foot, striking the ball first and hope the loft on the clubface is sufficient to get the ball out. No 'splash' shots with it though!

Mention was also made above of more use of water in taking over as a severe hazard from sand after the introduction of the SW. It's worth pointing out in this respect that once upon a time there were specialist clubs whose use was to play shots from water. This was back in the days when yee olde golf balls used to float.

All the best.

[Mac Plumart]

Mention was also made above of more use of water in taking over as a severe hazard from sand after the introduction of the SW. It's worth pointing out in this respect that once upon a time there were specialist clubs whose use was to play shots from water. This was back in the days when yee olde golf balls used to float.

Thomas...

GREAT POINT!

The replica gutties I play with float.  I never even thought of trying to hit them out of the water, but if you are playing the ball as it lies...you gotta.

Crazy how much the equipment has changed the game when you think about it.

[BCowan]

I think some struggle the first time playing F&F with wedges because they have too much bounce (IMO).  Grinding it off has helped me and is something i recommend to others who play F&F tracks. 

[Chris_Hufnagel]

Thomas, great post and thanks for digging this thread up - it was really fun to go through the pages and see everyone comment, it was especially nice to see Ralph's posts.

I couldn't agree more on your comments about bunker play using the thin-soled niblicks from the early hickory era.  I recently competed in the Mid Pines Hickory Open and had significant challenges making good bunker shots there.  It was a new experience for me, while I don't consider myself a great bunker player with modern equipment, I rarely find myself aiming away from bunkers.  I am only a year into hickory play and my rounds have almost been entirely at the Kingsley Club where, for some reason, I rarely have found myself in bunkers there and if I have, I never had much trouble extracting myself.  But for some reason, I was simply a disaster at Mid Pines and it got to the point where I lost any confidence I had and quickly found myself aiming away from pits just to avoid the trouble (and embarrassment) of having to deal with them.  A very nice playing partner of mine took one look at my niblick at the end of the round and told me straight-away I needed to find a wide-flanged niblick and I would be fine.  Given my relative proficiency with my modern day Vokey, I believe (and hope) he is right.

I attended the Mullock's Auction that Sunday night at Southern Pines and in addition to several other lots I was interested in, given my misery from the day's play at Mid Pines, I took special interest in three stainless, wide-flanged Stewarts from Ralph's collection that were on the block - they each sold for slightly more than the greens fees for three rounds at Pebble Beach, so as a result I am still searching for a wide-flanged niblick for next year...

[BCowan]

you might want to check with Tad Moore.  He was at the event and makes Hickory.  Wish he still made regular clubs for his irons i have are worn out. 

[David_Tepper]

"so I therefore go along with the premise that the modern SW has hugely impacted GCA as following it's introduction what were once sandy hazards are no longer hazards."

While I will agree that the invention of the sand wedge has impacted how golf is played, I am not so sure how use of "the modern SW has hugely impacted GCA." Can anyone cite an example of how or where GCA has been "hugely impacted?"

Clearly, better golfers are less intimidated by "sandy hazards" than they used to be, but I don't see how GCA has changed in response over the years. If anything, there is a vocal faction of GCA-ers who think bunkers have become shallower and less penal by their very GCA design.

Then again, Seve could hit better than average bunker shots with a 2-iron.
  

[Doug Siebert]

Regarding the invention of the sand wedge, given what Ballesteros was able to do out of a greenside bunker with a 2 iron, I wonder if it would have made that much difference for the pros?

I wonder what kind of magic Phil Mickelson could perform with a hickory set from the 1800s?  I daresay if he practiced with nothing else for a few months he would find a way to get it up and down from all the places he does now with his 64* wedge.  A guy like him, he might almost do better with the older clubs, just to show off!

[Thomas Dai]

Mac,

Spot on. For folk who arn't sure what we are going on about here's a photo. The photo is taken from the Glencall website. Glencall, based in Scotland, make hickory replica's and refurbish old hickories. Low resistance water irons like the one at left in the photo plus other special clubs like rake irons and rutt irons are part of their portfolio, although I don't use them. Great stuff.

Clubs like this remind me of an old photo I once saw of James Braid playing a shot off the railway line at TOC in the days when the railway line was 'in-bounds'. Guess he was using some kind of specialist 'railway club' - can't believe it was termed a 'rescue club' or 'hybrid' (sic!).



BC,

That's a very valid point about less bounce on F&F courses. Not just wedges either. It's why blades are still popular amongst links players. Less bounce/narrow flange becomes a bit more hasslesome though when you have a F&F course but the bunkers contain very soft sand. Time to carry a variety of wedges with a variety of bounces/flange widths. I think Dave Pelz recommends this general approach to clubbing.

Chris,

Like you, I really enjoyed reading the original thread posts and thanks for sharing your Kingsley, Mid-Pines and Southern Pines auction experiences with us.

Regarding wider flanged hickory niblicks, I've sent you a PM.

David & Doug,

Guys, I think Seve's famous first club was actually 3-iron, but no matter, he could do just about anything with any club.

They played a televised 1-club golf tournament at St Andrews in the lead-up (or maybe after) an Open in the late 70's-early 80's. Seve, Faldo, Langer etc played. They all seemed to use a 4 or 5-iron. I'd love to see the programme again. In an archive somewhere I expect. At about the same time, and I think I've mentioned this before, but Big Jack and Gentle Ben played a televised game also at StA with hickories. I recall Ben was great, Jack rather less so. I'd like to see this film again as well, probably also in a pre-Youtube archive somewhere.

That's a good point about Phil Mickelson Doug. I reckon he'd be amazing with yee olde clubs. So would a few others. Seve obviously, and John Daly as well. Guys who are soft-hand players and 'swingers of the club' rather than 'hitters of the ball'. Playing with hickory has made me think about why the 'swing the clubhead' theory originated.

All the best

[Doug Siebert]

That's a good point about Phil Mickelson Doug. I reckon he'd be amazing with yee olde clubs. So would a few others. Seve obviously, and John Daly as well. Guys who are soft-hand players and 'swingers of the club' rather than 'hitters of the ball'. Playing with hickory has made me think about why the 'swing the clubhead' theory originated.

Its possible to be soft handed around the greens but be a "hitter" on full shots, that's me to a T.

I wouldn't lose a step in my short game playing with hickories, but for full shots I'd have to swing it like I do to when trying to hit full shots with a Medicus.

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