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Mark Pearce

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Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2010, 11:37:34 AM »
Adrian,

I understand that.  I think the concern a traditional club like mine might have is that the £300 + green fee members might be less committed club members, perhaps playing in fewer competitions and playing less social golf than others.  It's not (yet) an issue for us since we have a nearly full membership and I can see it being a good model for less traditional or struggling clubs.

As to decent clubs surviving, I really like Brancepeth Castle, both as a course and as a club but on the two occasions I played there this year I got the impression that they were struggling for members and green fees.  They might have been hurt by the opening of the (very modern, very CCFAD) Rockliffe Hall nearby but I left feeling worried.  Now that might be a false impression but I think it's presumptious and complacent to assume that all "decent" clubs will be OK.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2010, 12:48:33 PM »
Simon - you are quite right about the joining fee issue. A good friend was approaching 30 and West Hill were to charge him the balance of the full members joining fee £2k+ so he left and paid slightly more to join one of my favourite heathland courses. The club had raised him through the ranks and when it became time to become a full member he left as did his best mate who went to another good heathland course. At RCP you only pay the entry fee for the original category you join.

We charge 20-29 year olds around 1/3 of full subs for locals and uni students £160.

Long distant and foreign memberships are being combined a reduced by about 1/3 for long distant UK members.

Adrian - I actually think we will all eventually lose out in the VAT I cannot imagine HMG settling six figure claims already submitted in a class action by private member clubs let alone dropping VAT for all. Frankly the country cannot afford it and there will be zero public sympathy for "elite golfers".

I am sure through the history of UK clubs the weak ones have fallen by the wayside and valuable plots of land sold off but I do think clubs that know their market, budget sensibly and value their members will survive OK. It's competition, leases, massive clubhouses and debt that cause the issues.

A club near me opened around 12 years ago built by the Japanese i believe it cost £10m+ as they went overboard but still had a very poor design and layout. Now the course is closed, the clubhouse sold off as a residence and the land up for sale for far less than the farmer was paid back then.

 
Cave Nil Vino

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2010, 01:12:33 PM »
Mark - You cant ignore the law and European Law states that Vat in sport should be no more than 5%, so the 17.5%% currently charged is against EU law. Not charging ' Not for profit golf clubs' Vat and charging 'for profit golf clubs' infringes the fair right to trade which becomes a distortion. Where a distortion of trade has been affected (needs proving) the wrong should be righted,if that means repaying back all the charged Vat for say 20 years then multiply that by say 750 clubs... its billions that the goverment will need to fork out to sette the anomaly. There will be a formula that needs to be drawn up since the clubs have reclaimed Vat as well, and ofcourse the Vat charges as you know only relate to certain parts that are free of the tax.
Personally I think Vat should be charged by all clubs albiet in line with the EU sports directive,if clubs paid the 5% on sports activity (not the bar-food) it would be easier to reconcille. I think the goverment will have to pay back the incorrectly charged tax, otherwise if proven to be a distortion of trade it becomes theft. I was involved in the lobbying to get the goverment to recogonise the problem.At one stage I was informed (and I saw the letter) that the goverment were not even going to defend the case, but this was at least a year ago. I don't think anyone could really support a situation where some golf clubs charge Vat on the subscriptions and some don't. At 20% in 2011 it makes a typical golf club £150 cheaper than its rival.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2010, 01:51:34 PM »
Although I have no figures to back this up, but, judging by the number of people out there playing at any time, one of the most successful pay-and-play outfits in south Manchester is one of the dreariest and dampest imaginable, Styal. It has various categories of membership from full to degrees of pay-and-play and non-members. It has a pancake-flat 18-hole course of about 6000 yards with plenty of hedges and ditches in which to lose balls. It also a has a 9-hole par three course of a dullness unsurpassed (the opportunities of losing balls in hedges and a pond notwithstanding). Its driving range is wonderfully busy, despite being far too short for a 300-yard hitter and mats only. Nearby Adlington (with two quite interesting par-3 courses, Hawtree-designed) and a much more expansive driving range on which you can play from beautifully kept grass in summer is never very busy. However, it was Styal that produced David Horsey (very successful Walker Cupper and a winner on tour), not Adlington.

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2010, 01:57:27 PM »
Mark- Does Styal have a cheaper price structure than Adlington or is location a factor. Poor golf courses having more people on them than a better course is not uncommon. Price is very important to the average Joe. Proximity is also important.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2010, 02:55:36 PM »
Adrian,

I don't know the figures. I'll have a look into it. The two establishments are VERY different. They are only five miles apart. But there are many other facilities competing in the area, which has led to the many problems for the south Manchester clubs. I'll tell you more anon, but it weighs in heavily on the local private clubs and what Duncan has said above.

I am sorry to hear that Brancepeth Castle may have problems - it's such a characterful course, even without those two stupendous par threes at nine and ten.

More tomorrow,

Mark.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2010, 03:56:48 PM »
Guys

Very interesting responses to my post. When I started the thread I was more thinking of the shortcomings of the courses of older members clubs rather than the structure of their green fees/subs etc. I would guess I am what you would call a nomad as I've been a member of 4 different clubs in the last 10 years. Like Mark P I just like being a member of a club and the convenience that brings, the nice feeling that being a member brings and the added benefit of being able to take golfing pals on to your own home course. Unlike Adam I've been fortunate to worm my way into golfing "fratenity's" at most clubs I've played. Also, the fact that I've managed to join 4 different clubs so readily speaks volumes for the state of the golf "business" compared to what it used to be.

One thing though that is a must for me, is that the course must be good, not just architecturally but also in good enough condition that you can enjoy the design, and that is where I think a lot of these older clubs fail. Their courses simply don't come upto scratch any more. I'm not interested in how nice the locker rooms are, or that the lounge has been extended or that the new caterers are producing an ala carte menu. What I care about is the golf. Tell me this, when was the last time you looked at a website for members club and the opening page wasn't a picture of the clubhouse. Seriously, who gives a toss ? For four years I travelled every weekend during the winter to the other side of the country with a group of pals to play at Gullane. Why ? You can bet it wasn't the quality of the bacon rolls.

Niall 

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2010, 04:04:32 PM »
....and another thing.

As some have quite correctly spotted, the big problem to my glorious scheme of relocating memebers clubs is planning. How about this for a thought. The average old course is probably about 80 to 100 acres give or take. Why not do a deal with the local authority where by the club gives them the clubhouse and say 10 holes, one of which can be converted to a driving range and practice area.

In return the club gets planning permission on the remaining 40 or 50 acres which not only pays for a smart new course elsewhere but also gives them a nice pot of money in the bank. The Council gets a new pay and play facility producing revenue for no cost to them. Also through in a bit of a kickback for the land deal plus giving them an acre or two of the development land for social housing and everyones a winner.

Niall

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2010, 04:45:34 PM »
Mark,

I've never been to Styal; indeed until now I didn't know of its existance, but I am delighted to learn that you are a fan of Adlington.

http://www.adlingtongolfcentre.com/

I love the place, am a regular visitor to the range and also have a round on the Graduate Course if ever I am in the area with an hour or so to spare. It is an excellent test of the short/medium game and I have frequently teamed up with other like-minded solo players for an impromptu round.

Funnily enough, I have always found the place to be pretty busy, particularly at weekends. It is a very different model to the tradiitional golf club - and all the more attractive for that...

It's also a great place to take my ten-year-old son on a Sunday while his mum is at work!
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 04:48:19 PM by Duncan Cheslett »

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2010, 06:22:51 PM »
Once the waiting list disappears the magic of the private club is gone. I'm one better than Niall. having been a member of 5 clubs in the past decade.  ONly one was an Average Members Course, but there's plenty to choose from.

The latest sent me a letter, it said “This offer of membership expires at the end of the month”.    After a five year wait you don’t call their bluff.  

I’ve seen a number of people move between “Average members clubs”.  Four of them move and then play together in a group taking no part in club life. When a better offer comes they move on, it’s a downward spiral.

My ‘home’ club is the extremely quirky 5500 yards (if that) Epping Golf Course.  I pay £200 a year and £9.50 a round.  It has well organised competitions section and a great membership, I feel lucky to have found it. This allows me country membership at two other clubs, all for about the price of a well established suburban London club.  Other Epping members will take a couple of trips a year with the money they’ve saved. A lot of the retired guys will seek out the special offers and they will take pleasure telling the working members where they played midweek.



Does anyone have examples of tradional clubs who have sold their land, relocated and thrived?
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 06:29:34 PM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2010, 07:22:08 PM »
Tony,

Is the membership offer you've just received from the place I think it's from? Congratulations, if it is!

I think plenty of clubs moved to a new site and thrived, but it seems most who did that did so before 1920.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #36 on: December 10, 2010, 11:37:06 AM »
Once the waiting list disappears the magic of the private club is gone. I'm one better than Niall. having been a member of 5 clubs in the past decade.  ONly one was an Average Members Course, but there's plenty to choose from.

The latest sent me a letter, it said “This offer of membership expires at the end of the month”.    After a five year wait you don’t call their bluff.  

I’ve seen a number of people move between “Average members clubs”.  Four of them move and then play together in a group taking no part in club life. When a better offer comes they move on, it’s a downward spiral.

My ‘home’ club is the extremely quirky 5500 yards (if that) Epping Golf Course.  I pay £200 a year and £9.50 a round.  It has well organised competitions section and a great membership, I feel lucky to have found it. This allows me country membership at two other clubs, all for about the price of a well established suburban London club.  Other Epping members will take a couple of trips a year with the money they’ve saved. A lot of the retired guys will seek out the special offers and they will take pleasure telling the working members where they played midweek.



Does anyone have examples of tradional clubs who have sold their land, relocated and thrived?


5 different clubs ! You slut.

Epping - by the sounds of things you enjoy the other members of the club, but what made you join in the first place, presumably it was the course given you had your choice of places to play ?

Niall

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2010, 12:14:57 PM »
As soon as a golf club drops the joining fee it perputuates the rats rally. Keep the joining fee, the better chance of retaining your members. No joining fee courses allow the free movement of customers from club to club as the neighbouring clubs underpin their competitors, forcing another club to underpin them next year.

Nial, have you paid 5 joining fees? ::)
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #38 on: December 10, 2010, 12:30:20 PM »
I understand your point completely Adrian, but in my recent search for a club to join I found that all but the most upmarket places had abandoned joining fees completely.

In my area at least, it would be impossible for most clubs to charge a joining fee and still attract new members, as there is a choice of at least 20 other clubs within 10 miles which don't.

For new players the joining fee is a huge deterrent. What if you don't enjoy the club? That's a grand or more down the toilet on top of the annual subs. 95% of potential new members would simply take their custom elsewhere.

I suspect though, unless a club has a waiting list, that the joining fee is 'negotiable' to some degree or other in most cases.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #39 on: December 10, 2010, 12:30:52 PM »
Adrian

Good question. Firstly, I'm not as big a slut as Tony, I've only been a member of 4 clubs but will probably join another when the golfing season kicks in.

The first club I was a member since childhood so doesn't count. The second I joined was near Carlisle, while it wasn't a members course as it was privately owned it did have a club attached if you know what I mean. That was 7 or 8 years ago when I moved down there and didn't have a club so was happy to pay the £50 special offer joining fee together with the pay monthly type subs without playing the course beforehand. The next trick was to get in to Silloth, and frankly if I'd known how easy that was I wouldn't have bothered with the other course. From memory the joining fee was something like £200. Most courses in the area had some sort of joining fee at that time but Carlisle GC was the only one with any kind of waiting list. That was about 7 or 8 years ago.

In recent years I joined Glasgow which was an altogether different proposition with a hefty joining fee and subs with proposer and seconder and 6 backers. From memory that took 18 months to 2 years to get in.

I've been up in Elgin for the last 14 months and look like being up there for at least another 12 months so the Glasgow membership is going in abeyance and I'll join a local club up there. I can get in all the local club quite readily. At the moment they are still looking for joining fees but given the closure of the RAF bases up there I don't see that lasting for long.

Niall

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #40 on: December 10, 2010, 01:19:46 PM »

Niall

What about Moray GC?

Melvyn

Michael Latham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #41 on: December 10, 2010, 01:49:26 PM »
With reference to the earlier posts regarding VAT.
There are two 'class" actions currently in play. One seeks to show that the unequal application of Vat between Members and Proprietory Clubs is a distortion of trade, the other, on behalf of the members clubs, seeks relief from the raising of VAT on green fees.
I have been much involved with the first action and in conversation with fellow litigants I know that the majority would willingly forego the claim that of necessity preceded the action in favour of a level playing field between all clubs, i.e. a uniform tax rate whatever that be.

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #42 on: December 10, 2010, 05:02:52 PM »
Duncan, the established clubs around south Manchester, Wilmslow, Prestbury etc still charge two years' subscription as a joining fee and your first year will, therefore, cost you little short of £4,000. But our American friends would be hugely envious. What would their joining fees be in such a similarly provincial city as Philadelphia, Chicago or San Francisco. You may laugh at the comparison, but where do they stand in comparison to NY and Washington (why can't they manage with one first city - we do and, after all, we showed them how to run their country) compared with Manchester and London?

Niall C

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Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #43 on: December 11, 2010, 06:50:34 AM »

Niall

What about Moray GC?

Melvyn

Melvyn

Don't know specifically about Moray GC but when I enquired about a short term membership with 3 or 4 clubs last summer, Moray was one of them and replied by return. I was also speaking to the pro at Forres (btw, a smashing course in great nick) who said that they were 50 members short of break even and that was before RAF Kinloss closure was announced.

Niall

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #44 on: December 12, 2010, 01:06:23 PM »
Niall - to answer the original question I think most club members are happy with their lot and enjoy their courses. On this site we often forget the average player wants his course nearby, good beer and a friendly members atmosphere. I've yet to hear of many successful club moves to new courses.
 
Cave Nil Vino

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #45 on: December 12, 2010, 03:15:53 PM »
One thing I've picked up about clubs, having been lucky enough to learn about them by researching them for anniversary books, is that very often change has been forced upon a club by outside circumstances. Those clubs that didn't survive haven't needed centenary books. Others overcame their difficulties and survived. Those that survived may have had to undergo major changes to their constitutions etc, but what is remarkable is that the ethos of the club almost always remains hardly altered. If the founding fathers were to come back today they would recognise their club, even if not their course. When you think about it it is not so surprising, because members understand why their club is like it is and they invite like-minded friends to become members, too. In these days when all clubs are looking for and needing new members, those looking to join a club can shop around and will choose the club that appears to offer an ethos with which they are comfortable. It's mostly self-perpetuating.

Niall C

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Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #46 on: December 13, 2010, 07:59:43 AM »
Mark and Mark,

I think you are probably right in that in most clubs most members are happy with their lot and that changes only come about by outside forces. However I fancy that there are probably enough footloose members who are willing to change clubs for various reasons, one of the main reasons being the course, and that those members leaving could be the difference between the club succeeding and the club failing.

To me it just stands to reason that the clubs with the best courses will survive, and therefore if the club wants to survive it should be pro-active in addressing shortcomings in its course. And I don't mean adding a pond and a ceremonial fountain !

Niall

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #47 on: December 13, 2010, 08:53:04 AM »
Duncan, the established clubs around south Manchester, Wilmslow, Prestbury etc still charge two years' subscription as a joining fee and your first year will, therefore, cost you little short of £4,000.

Mark,

There are plenty that charge no joining fee at all; Hazel Grove, Marple, Didsbury, and Reddish Vale all offered me immediate membership with no joining fee.

Or aren't they 'estabilished' clubs? ;)

From my reading of club websites there are plenty of others too with no joining fee. A few examples;

http://www.mellorgolf.co.uk/pages.php/how_to_join.html
http://www.maccgolfclub.co.uk/pages/index/7/11
http://www.chorltoncumhardygolfclub.co.uk/membership.html


Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #48 on: December 13, 2010, 12:17:30 PM »
Duncan, the established clubs around south Manchester, Wilmslow, Prestbury etc still charge two years' subscription as a joining fee and your first year will, therefore, cost you little short of £4,000.

Mark,

There are plenty that charge no joining fee at all; Hazel Grove, Marple, Didsbury, and Reddish Vale all offered me immediate membership with no joining fee.

Or aren't they 'estabilished' clubs? ;)

From my reading of club websites there are plenty of others too with no joining fee. A few examples;

http://www.mellorgolf.co.uk/pages.php/how_to_join.html
http://www.maccgolfclub.co.uk/pages/index/7/11
http://www.chorltoncumhardygolfclub.co.uk/membership.html


Duncan - Is that a good thing do you think for the long term? Let's say the golf cub "HAD" a £1000 joining fee but now its zero, if the cub turns tound 30 members in 30 members out every year, they have just dropped £30,000. Yes you can argue "but we won't replace the 30 that left if we had a JF, they would join XYZ cub next door". Of course its the first stages of death spiral.
The consumer is now a member of a golf club and has not committed his £1000, at the first sign of a better deal he's off to save a farthing, he has not lost his £1000 that bound him to committment.

Nial - I think what you say is right on it.

A point worth remembering is these clubs just look to get back all square financially, theres no profit and often no reserve or store, very often they a run as horrendous buisness's committee driven by an array of tradesmen that have no idea how to manage green grass. If numbers drop they have to hike the fees or cut the budget (stage 2 death spiral)
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #49 on: December 14, 2010, 02:05:19 AM »
]Duncan - Is that a good thing do you think for the long term? Let's say the golf cub "HAD" a £1000 joining fee but now its zero, if the cub turns tound 30 members in 30 members out every year, they have just dropped £30,000. Yes you can argue "but we won't replace the 30 that left if we had a JF, they would join XYZ cub next door". Of course its the first stages of death spiral.
The consumer is now a member of a golf club and has not committed his £1000, at the first sign of a better deal he's off to save a farthing, he has not lost his £1000 that bound him to committment.

I wasn't making a case for the disappearance of joining fees being either a good or a bad thing; simply pointing out the situation as it now is.

The fact is that in mine and Mark's area of the country at least, joining fees are no longer charged at any but the more 'exclusive' clubs in the more affluent locations. Clubs for whom membership still holds some social 'cachet' are able to charge joining fees; the majority - many of whom have just as good if not superior courses - are not.

The perfect example;

http://www.cavendishgolfclub.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=59&Itemid=82

I am sure that the situation is little different in other areas of the country.

Surely then, in the absence of a joining fee ensuring a member's commitment and loyalty, clubs will simply have to work harder to retain members by ensuring the best golfing and general membership experience possible. This is how the rest of the commercial world works; customers' loyalty must be earned through consistently good service and value for money. Those businesses able to do this thrive; those that can't fall by the wayside. Why should the business of running a golf club be any different?

Your 'death spiral' example above ignores an important point. Many people (myself included) would not have joined a golf club at all if a joining fee of £1000 or more had been demanded. I would simply have remained a nomadic player and treated golf as an occasional hobby to be fitted in around the rest of my activities. Joining a club has put it at the very centre of my life. Joining fees are a deterrent to people taking up the game seriously - their disappearance should allow the general pool of club golfers to increase, hopefully enabling more clubs to survive rather than less.

Golf has suffered long enough as being viewed generally as a past-time pursued mainly by wealthy professionals and businessmen. Quite clearly that particular demographic is no longer sufficient to ensure the viability of every golf club and course in the country, so golf must become more democratic and market itself to a wider public...

...a public which by and large will be unable or unwilling to pay a joining fee of say £1000 on top of annual fees of £850.

 £850 per year is probably doable for the average bloke - it is the £1000 joining fee that isn't. More importantly, it is impossible to justify to his wife! :)

The huge number of potential club golfers who fall into this category are very possibly the future of mainstream golf clubs in the UK.

The old business model of the local golf club having a waiting list for membership of people desperate to storm the citadel of social acceptance in exchange for a hefty joining fee and them maybe enjoying the odd round of golf as a bonus is gone - except perhaps in Wilmslow and Prestbury!

Many factors are at play in this; less respect for the established 'social order', more opportunities to play golf without the commitment of club membership, a decline in the popularity of golf in general, the ongoing financial situation in general, etc, etc.

If golf clubs are going to survive - let alone thrive - they are going to have to come to terms with these factors, and adjust their business models accordingly. Living in the past is the true start to the 'death spiral'.


 


« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 03:06:13 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

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