Bandon Dunes and Enlightened Capitalism

[Ben Sims]

That article is fiddlesticks.  I won't even get into the tax on jet fuel, landing fees, ramp fees, and all the other expenses that are taxed that he negated to mention.  These fees all get recycled into the airport in some way.  Simply put, some of those numbers need adjusting.  I also won't get into the crude assumptions about "5000 jets" a year.  But he forgets that aircraft movement is counted once for takeoff, once for landing.  So in effect, that cuts his 5000 in half to 2500.   The ONLY way that an airport authority counts jet traffic is in this manner.  Ask any tower or ground controller.

My biggest beef with the article is the assumption that there is an alternative.  One thing we learn as officers is that it does no good to identify a problem without a solution.  So after reading the article, what am I left to assume?  That Mr. Keiser and BDGR are being subsidized by the worker for the greater good of the CEO crowd?   That the Bandon/North Bend area would do beter WITHOUT the resort doing well?  This is hardly the realization.  BDGR offered a fairly substantial windfall to a community that was losing it's other means of employment.  There is no alternative to what BDGR provides.  To negatively impact any attempts to grow the resort is a direct action against those that it does and may employ.

This Times guy really went off the deep end on that one.  

[John Kavanaugh]

Ben,

Don't forget all the good that is done for a community just by building a $31 million dollar expansion.  I would guess this construction project will bring more real money into the community than the Resort could ever dream.  Yea stimulus!!!

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jaka,
The math speaks for itself. If, as you calculated, just under 14 jets per day make their way to Bandon with 8 people aboard then those people can only account for 220 of the available tee times across the three courses, and that's if they play 2 rounds per day.

[Ben Sims]

John,

There is a point of diminishing returns I would think.  The 31 million expansion--which I assume includes the Bandon "village" concept--might not create enough new jobs to offset any incentives (subsidy-wise) to build it.  But that's pure speculation on my part.

If I'm not mistaken, I think Mr. Keiser has publicly stated that the resort is deeded to the USGA in his will.  I would imagine the joint becomes FAR more attractive to the USGA the more infrastructure that surrounds the courses.  Maybe his dream is to leave the USGA with the American home of golf.  You know, Reagan beat the Soviets by spending more cash than them.

[Jeff Taylor]

The idea that big corporations are universally pro-free market is one of the biggest myths out there.

If someone believes in free market capitalism, they would not require their employees to sign non-compete agreements.

You are kidding right? The potential employee is free to not sign the agreement and work somewhere else.

[JC Jones]

Ben,

Don't forget all the good that is done for a community just by building a $31 million dollar expansion.  I would guess this construction project will bring more real money into the community than the Resort could ever dream.  Yea stimulus!!!

Unless they hire some guy from southern Indiana to pave the runways.

[Jason McNamara]

I'd have to start a separate thread to list all of Mr. Cheney's crimes and treasonous acts...

It's almost as if you don't really care about some of your threads, except to the extent you can use them as vehicles to further your (considerable) political grievances.  A shame, really - I thought you'd hit on a pretty good topic.

But thanks for proving me right about the Cheney tic thing.

[Mike_Young]

John,

There is a point of diminishing returns I would think.  The 31 million expansion--which I assume includes the Bandon "village" concept--might not create enough new jobs to offset any incentives (subsidy-wise) to build it.  But that's pure speculation on my part.

If I'm not mistaken, I think Mr. Keiser has publicly stated that the resort is deeded to the USGA in his will.  I would imagine the joint becomes FAR more attractive to the USGA the more infrastructure that surrounds the courses.  Maybe his dream is to leave the USGA with the American home of golf.  You know, Reagan beat the Soviets by spending more cash than them.

Ben,
I never knew that Bandon was willed to the USGA....I hope he changes that at some point....

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Of all the people I least expect the name of to pop up in a thread about Bandon Dunes and Mike Kaiser is Dick Cheney. I am fortunate to be friends with a wonderful guy who could be described as a butt boy for Dick aka the Big Dick or even the Biggest Dick ever in American history or aka Doctor Evil. We all have our scars to bear and America is littered with his boys. I hope his name drops from this site forever. I will not be getting his biography either.

[Sean_A]

And so what if Bandon is or will be for the rich?  Furthermore, nobody, and I mean NOBODY, really believes in free market capitalism.  Some spout off about it a lot, but they don't really believe that their government (and indeed other governments) shouldn't be doing something to enhance their chances of success - and why not?  


Ciao

[rboyce]

Another recommendation for Dream Golf by Stephen Goodwin. Good stocking stuffer for your golf buddies. I took two classes with Prof. Goodwin in college and he is a great guy (and pretty easy grader). He never once mentioned golf in class that I can remember, so I was surprised when I saw him strolling the fairways at the Junior Am held at Columbia a while back.

Enlightened Capitalism? I'll offer two quotes:

Capitalism is the worst economic system...except for all the others. - Winston Churchill

There is no such thing as profits..only costs - Peter Drucker

Churchill's point is that capitalism has many failings, but is still the best system so far.

Drucker is the most enlightened capitalist I've ever read. Drucker's point is that the *required* return on capital is not evil or profiteering as some claim. The lack of educaction about return on capital is one of the biggest failings in our eduction system. Why return on capital is not taught more clearly in HS economics I don't know.

[Tim Bert]

I agree with most of what Terry Lavin stated in his post on the first page, but can't let this gem go untouched...

"The overall vibe of the place, which must be largely attributable to two factors (no carts and no private memberships) has simply infected the place with an "everybody belongs" feeling."

I get the no membership thing, and I get his point about everyone paying... But in my opinion the carts only policy is exactly the opposite of "everyone belongs." what a strange comment to include in that quote. Don't agree with it one bit and I for one absolutely LOVE the walking only policy, so please don't take my words as a critical comment on that policy.   I think there is certainly a feeling of "everyone belongs" amongst those that actually get there, but there are plenty of barriers to entry such that the "everyone" that is belonging is a limited group of people.

[Ben Sims]

Tim,

Terry probably has a better take on this subject than most of us.  And I agree with the his take on the statement you quote above.  The walking only aspect of Bandon is for everyone.  It doesn't matter who you are, unless you have a doctor's note, you're not riding.  One of my favorite memories of Mckee's pub was watching a few of the guests wince in pain as they walked to the restroom after their third 36-hole day.  Their faces chapped and drawn like Lance Armstrong on the 19th day of the tour.  Some of these guys were multi-millionaires.  Didn't matter.  They had to endure a bit of suffering for their grand experience just like me. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Tim,

You can only belong if everyone in the group is like minded.  Walking is simply an initiation fee along with travel and poor weather. That is why at Bandon everyone there "belongs".     

[Peter Pallotta]

It's like the big surly doorman outside the hot new club - implacable to pleadings and short skirts until the line-up stretches around the block.

[RJ_Daley]

I have read "Dream Golf" and honestly it wasn't so impressive as to stick with me in any manner as to be one of those books that was real 'enlightement'.  So, I can't just quote or discuss the intricacies of the Keiser approach to golf development without going back and re-reading some of the details. So I have a few fleeting, maybe inaccurate impressions:

But, isn't it correct that the self made multimillionaire, who made his real fortune from a great idea of recycled paper greeting cards and ran a business that he oversaw in strict detail to his personal beliefs and conservative nature, always maintaining his personal proximity to all the aspects of the company, in a very understated and modest personal space?  Isn't the fundamental reason for Keiser's success, that he was very adverse to piling up debt as he proceeded in his expansions of his primary business, and even more importantly, he did not take on significant if any debt to enter the arena of golf course development, including "Lost Dunes" and then carrying that basic- low to no- debt philosophy to the Bandon project?  Maybe I'm wrong or oversimplified it, but I think the enlightened part of Mr Keiser's approach may be modest steps in his expansion of his footprint.  That he was a golf enthusiast first and had a rich person's dream of doing it "because he could" and had a personal operating principle of not 'overreaching' and doing things within his means and resources, is enlightening, it seems to me.  I stand to be corrected.

But, in the bigger picture of all this free market and capitalist, subsidized wealth and crony capitalism discussion, I think to bring it within the realm of our golf development discussion, that the downfalls in all the so-called golf developers that don't make it, can be directly attributed to "overreach" and greed, in the manifestation of ridiculous over borrowing, using the so-called "other people's money" mentality.  Those overreachers are the big borrowers and have the cavalier mentality of using 'other people's money' with the irresponsible fall back of contigency that if their overreach doesn't work, other people get hurt, (lenders, investors, and shareholders) and the greedy principals of the scheme just declare bankruptcy, reinvent themselves and move on to whom ever they can use again, in a crony capitalist, influence peddling clearing of obstacles and over hyped marketting sort of way. 

Keiser seems to me to be the true conservative in the best business practices sort of way.

[Terry Lavin]

I agree with most of what Terry Lavin stated in his post on the first page, but can't let this gem go untouched...

"The overall vibe of the place, which must be largely attributable to two factors (no carts and no private memberships) has simply infected the place with an "everybody belongs" feeling."

I get the no membership thing, and I get his point about everyone paying... But in my opinion the carts only policy is exactly the opposite of "everyone belongs." what a strange comment to include in that quote. Don't agree with it one bit and I for one absolutely LOVE the walking only policy, so please don't take my words as a critical comment on that policy.   I think there is certainly a feeling of "everyone belongs" amongst those that actually get there, but there are plenty of barriers to entry such that the "everyone" that is belonging is a limited group of people.

Tim,

I hear what you're saying, but the barriers that you speak of relate only to true disability.  The lazy, the slothful, the morbidly obese need not apply, so to speak, but if one has a legitimate disability, you can get a cart.  I've seen a golfer in a cart each of the three times I've been there, but only one per day to my recollection.  Trust me, I don't wear the walking-only hair shirt like some.  I occasionally ride in a cart if I'm in a hurry and caddies aren't available, but there's something overwhelmingly positive about a resort of this quality that requires walking.  Let's compare it to Pebble Beach.  Anyone can play and anyone can ride.  In fact, you can rent a cart and pay for your significant other to ride with you.  I kid you not.  I played as a single one day.  The starter hooked me up with two Japanese men who didn't speak English.  They were riding.  I asked the other guy if he was riding or walking, because I really preferred to walk, but didn't relish walking alone with the rest in carts.  When he told me he was going to ride, I said, "okay, I'll ride with you".  He then told me that his wife was going to ride with him and I asked whether the starter was going to let a fivesome on the course.  He said, she was just going to watch.  So I walked with a caddie and watched all of them.  And listened to her.

Regrettably, all three were terrible players more interested in sightseeing than competitive golf.  I would venture to say that none of the three broke 125 that day.  The American chap was the real embarrassment, however, because his wife shouted instructions to him all day:  Keep your head down, RJ.  Slow down your swing, RJ.  Turn your shoulders, RJ.

She yelled everything except, "Pick it up, RJ."

Bottom line, Pebble is a great place, but they get all sorts of not so serious players because they allow carts and even paid spectators in carts.  Nothing like the above example occurs at Bandon and I really believe that the absence of carts is largely responsible.  It's a sort of built-in deselection of the kind of chops one wouldn't want to be slowed down by at a great golf course.

[Tim Bert]

"The lazy, the slothful, the morbidly obese need not apply" - You just made my point again.  As I said before, not everyone belongs in Bandon.  For those that seek it out and are willing to overcome the barriers of cost, travel, and the walking only rule - absolutely agree that there is the everybody belongs feel to the people that get there.  But many choose not to get there because it doesn't project "everyone belongs" from afar.  There is a very targeted audience.

I don't have a problem with the policy, love the atmosphere, and I am a big advocate of walking golf courses.

[John Kavanaugh]

Golf for everyone is great golf for no one. 

[RJ_Daley]

JK, I just don't think that either way is completely accurate. 

The concept of golf for everyone, can be great golf, but not universally so.

Golf prices in CCFAD high fees or exclusive memberships for only those in a high income strata that can afford it is also not a guarantee of great golf for all in that demographic. 

I think that the fact that we have had eras where golf as a recognized social recreational amenity worth the expenditures of communities as in the municipal or local government entity or partnership concept is valid and has produced great golf for many, though still not 'everybody'. 

We don't have a diverse golf managed or developed scene between private clubs, high end CCFADs, mom and pop privates, and publicly owned operations for nothing.  It is an evolved scene where some models work well, some don't, and examples can be found in all models for great golf and not so great golf. 

Keiser's model is great golf, but not for everybody in a sense it is far more exclusive than Chambers Bay or Wild Horse, or BB Red-Black etc.  They all have their levels of greatness, and accessibility.

BTW, Is Mike Keiser significantly different in motivations or methodology than James Walker Tufts, some 110 years ago? 

In about 50 years from now, will Mission Hills in China be compared to Bethpage in how they came about within their respective societies and economies, as they were in the time they were developed?  I don't know, and there is a scarcity of info I could readily find googling Mission Hills. 

[Anthony Butler]

I eagerly await the release of your biography of Dick Cheney. If one is not coming then I suggest you find someone that better fits your theory. After all, to call a man that has been in public service for decades a looter is hyperbole. I am not in the tank for Mr. Cheney but you need to be more specific if you wish to make your case.

It's one of Anthony's tics.  This thread would have been just as good without that gratuitous Cheney reference, but he typically has to work in that sort of thing.

I'd have to start a separate thread to list all of Mr. Cheney's crimes and treasonous acts... Suffice to say if someone offered me a 5 day trip to Bandon Dunes on the house, or 5 minutes alone in a room with Dick Cheney and a pitching wedge, I would chose the latter.

Anthony, I had you figured as an anti-death penalty, anti-torture type of guy. You and Cheney may have more in common then you know.

Since you asked... The reason I am generally against the death penalty is not because some people don't deserve to die, but because it is so unequally applied. A reflection of the inequalities that infect the entire judicial system. Convicted, treasonous scumbags like Lewis Libby are walking the streets while some poor kid with a bag full of dope can end up serving a couple of years in prison. Since Libby was acting entirely on the orders of his boss, they should suffer the same fate as people like the Rosenbergs-as they both compromised national security to advance their own political agenda.

BTW-I started this thread was not to bash capitalism or any particular group, it was simply to point out that a man whose politics leans to the right created the most significant golf-related enterprise in this country since the inception of Ping by working with people who he might see as his enemies instead of trampling over them, paying someone off, or financing the election of someone more amenable to his point of view.

Merely questioning the way business operates in this country doesn't mean you are a card-carrying member of the Communist Party.  I work for one of the 10 largest companies in the US... Figure out who they are, and what their tag-line is, and you'll know exactly why I started this thread.

[Derek_Duncan]

Keiser seems to me to be the true conservative in the best business practices sort of way.

RJ,

In the revised edition of Dream Golf, Mike Keiser describes himself as a "small-town capitalist." In the chapter on the making of Old Macdonald, one scene takes place in late 2008 when the financial world is crumbling and the markets are spiraling downward. Keiser is disgusted and expresses disdain for the bankers, hedge fund managers and financial speculators at the center of the mess. "I hope they all get thrown in jain" he says.

[Mike_Young]

[/quote from Anthony Butler]


BTW-I started this thread was not to bash capitalism or any particular group, it was simply to point out that a man whose politics leans to the right created the most significant golf-related enterprise in this country since the inception of Ping by working with people who he might see as his enemies instead of trampling over them, paying someone off, or financing the election of someone more amenable to his point of view.

Merely questioning the way business operates in this country doesn't mean you are a card-carrying member of the Communist Party.  I work for one of the 10 largest companies in the US... Figure out who they are, and what their tag-line is, and you'll know exactly why I started this thread.

[/quote]

Anthony,
" instead of trampling.....paying someone off....Enemies..."   I think most people who are capitalist work in this manner and the few who don't are the exception...not the other way around....AND I think that is why so often there is a huge disconnect between right and left...we always hear the bad from both sides....JMO

[Anthony Butler]

Anthony,
" instead of trampling.....paying someone off....Enemies..."   I think most people who are capitalist work in this manner and the few who don't are the exception...not the other way around....AND I think that is why so often there is a huge disconnect between right and left...we always hear the bad from both sides....JMO

Again the fact that it happens often does not mean it happens all the time. And again, the fact that someone has a criticism of people on the right wing fringe or the way business is sometimes conducted does not mean I am 'on the left'.

Thomas Jefferson said, 'the price of liberty is eternal vigilance'. We can't be sure exactly who Jefferson saw as the enemies of liberty, but I would argue the biggest threat to our liberty is not some terrorist toting a a vintage Soviet RPG launcher in Pakistan. Continuing to run up our national debt and be in further in hock to the Saudis and Chinese is a far greater threat to US national security.

Mike-How much trampling and paying off you think occurs in our society would depend on your attitude towards the Supreme Court allowing business interests to conduct unlimited, anonymous fund-raising for elections... Which the US Chamber of Commerce immediately took advantage of this past election cycle.  I see that as trampling the rights of individuals who don't have that luxury.

[Lou_Duran]

Wow, Anthony Butler.  Don't toy with us.  Please disclose who you work for and what you do because if you have any decision-making responsibility outside of the mailroom, given your attitudes and reasoning, I want to make sure I don't have any financial interest in that entity.  Astounding, really!