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Adam Jessie

  • Karma: +0/-0
How good is Shadow Creek???
« on: November 26, 2010, 07:57:13 PM »
There is a group of us playing on Monday at Shadow Creek. I usually try to stay away from stuff like this. But I just can't resist. Any Thoughts??

AJ

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How good is Shadow Creek???
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2010, 10:15:27 PM »
The experience is top notch. The golf course's quality will be up to you and your group to decide/debate.

The recent changes are all positive, from opening up views to creating more low mowed areas around the greens. The new practice area is very well done.

Report back and tell us what you thought.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: How good is Shadow Creek???
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2010, 10:44:13 PM »
Adam,

I'm on record as thinking it is very good, but that was 19 years ago.  You tell us!

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How good is Shadow Creek???
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2010, 10:10:11 AM »
Tom, I'd say very good is accurate. When Tommy, Gib and I first played it, we all considered it to be a top 100 American course. Maybe not as highly ranked as it actually was, but, still solidly within the GW list.

All the holes are solid, with perhaps only one weak hole. I do have a personal connection to the course, so I'm aware of my potential bias. It's style is not my preferred, but from the Vegas courses I've seen, it's easily the best.

As I said the changes are very well done, and only improved the layout.

"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Matt_Ward

Re: How good is Shadow Creek???
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2010, 11:06:56 AM »
Adam J:

The "name" situation is the hook but in my mind when you go there and play the overall nature of the holes (albeit my last visit was several years ago) is not what it's all cracked up to be.

The story of Shadow Creek is how it got built and what Wynn / Fazio did to bring it to life. The actual stuff that's there is really above average golf but nothing stellar to warrant all the fanfare the place gets. Call it the Vegas mystique -- nothing like mega hype with a bit of exaggeration to really stir the pot.

Anyone who says it's the best Vegas course needs to play the full sampling of courses available -- many of which can be had for half or even more the price.

Playing Shadow Creek is an ego trip to brag to your buds you played it. If you have the $$ and desire go enjoy it. For those believing the course is an automatic top 100 course it's likely they have not played the sheer array of courses here in the USA (see Bayonne as one good example) and the other stuff that TF has designed. Just my opinion -- look forward to your comments.

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How good is Shadow Creek???
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2010, 02:51:09 PM »
What type of Doak rating would you give it?

The first time I played it I was really impressed.  The 2nd and 3rd time, not so much and became somewhat bored by it.  I am still amazed at the construction and some of the thought that went into many of the holes but 16 isn't much of a hole and 17 is sensory overload.  The 18th is pretty but really a fairly easy hole if you hit it decent so the last 3 holes are disappointing, at least for me.

Matt_Ward

Re: How good is Shadow Creek???
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2010, 03:15:32 PM »
Joel:

You tell me -- what Doak # would you give it ?

I don't see it in the 8 range -- and 7 would be pushing it for me.

Joel, if you are "bored" with a course -- don't see how it can glean an 8 or higher ratings - right ?

I will say this -- I have not been there recently -- so my remarks / feelings have to be weighed with that in mind.

Glad to hear they made improvements -- but frankly if the "improvements" were needed -- it speaks to the point of what was likely deficient prior to that work.

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How good is Shadow Creek???
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2010, 04:00:37 PM »
Adam,
  I am playing there on Wednesday. I assume that you're going to be there fom the Floratine thing? PM with you playing partners. Thanks
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Adam Jessie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How good is Shadow Creek???
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2010, 08:42:18 AM »
Anthony,

Yes. I will be there for the meeting of the minds for the best fertilizer on the market! 

Astron forever.

AJ

Patrick_Mucci

Re: How good is Shadow Creek???
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2010, 11:27:02 AM »
Adam,

I think you'll like it and I know you'll appreciate how and where it was built.

I guess "Vegas" demands flair versus subtlety.

What I've always been puzzled about with respect to golf in the Las Vegas area, is why no one tried to craft a TOC, GCGC or Pine Tree like course, courses that seem to integrate well with flat terrain, courses that present an outstanding challenge, yet are fun to play.

With the focus being the quality of the golf/golf course from a playability perspective,

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How good is Shadow Creek???
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2010, 11:34:53 AM »
I'll bet the impact of how and where it was built, was much greater, back before the housing boom reached it's front, back and side doors.

"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Gib_Papazian

Re: How good is Shadow Creek???
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2010, 02:56:36 PM »
To begin, the entire Shadow Creek experience is one of those rare instances that defies the simple evaluation of a golf course. It also answers the oft posed question that if a good golf course were located next to an ugly industrial park or waste dump, would it still be as good?

Like Pine Valley and Augusta, it all depends on how well you hide the outside world. Shadow Creek certainly does that.
I arrived a night before in a wild desert thunderstorm. It has been two decades since my last experiment with hallucinogenic mushrooms, but as the rain pelted the airplane and bolts of lightning lit the sky, perhaps I was a bit more susceptible to the illusions created by the puppet masters.

It began at Caesars Palace, but could as easily have been New York New York, Paris, Treasure Island with a shipload of Buccaneers or a jet black pyramid, blasting a cylinder of light into space.

They lure you in slowly. An intimate dinner in an open air Italian Bistro with fine Chianti - ancient statues line the plaza with an impossibly beautiful fountain as a centerpiece. Tourists mill about in front of shops full of European clothes and jewelry.

Everything appears authentic, with not a detail missing but the pigeon droppings and promiscuous Italian men whistling at beautiful women strutting by, pretending to be offended but secretly flattered.

It all seemed so real, staring into the eyes of a woman I first met 25 years ago on a train in Europe. For a moment, I forgot we were seated in the wing of a gambling casino.

But everything is an illusion, a mirage in the middle of an angry scorching desert. The Italian sky above the bistro is a lighted ceiling, and the hint of Mediterranean sea wafting in the air has been pumped into the ventilation system.

It is nice to pretend for a short while and wonder what might have been - but trying to recapture a feeling from another lifetime against such a fantastical backdrop is a path guaranteed to end in crushing disappointment when the gargoyle of reality reasserts its ugly scowl.

For you see, Las Vegas is not really a city, but a breathing organism in equal measure chameleon and parasite. Its roots are shallow, a series of enormous props built up and torn down on The Strip, staffed by carneys and freak show barkers in polyester tuxedos.

And so it is with Shadow Creek - a perfect reflection of its soulless environment - a fantastical creation, an engineering miracle, a wondrous counterpoint to the smarmy cesspool of the casino culture . . . but still only a prop.

Ruthlessly efficient and antiseptic, the Shadow Creek experience begins in a stretch limousine with a guest list. A fellow writer's wife was not pre-approved and left behind in the driveway. There is nothing relaxed or left to chance - a well rehearsed golfing ballet for special guests only. No exceptions.

The ride down an ugly freeway does not look promising, especially when the driver turns off towards a dusty railroad yard, surrounded by hopeful “For Sale” signs in front of sun scorched parcels of flat sand and cactus.

A tiny and innocuous street sign points the way, a short stretch called “Shadow Creek Lane” that ends at a simple unmarked gate staffed by a severe looking guard. “Open Sesame” and in an instant, reality disappears.

Turning the corner, I suppose I was expecting something garish, cloying and over-the-top, but it looks like an understated residence converted into a clubhouse. The locker room flows off the main building awkwardly, as if it evolved as an afterthought.

No formalized bag drop or bleached blond greeters with headsets. Just a small driveway leading to a modest entrance.
Inside, a soothing and intimate seating area surrounded by wooden lockers.

Each has a name affixed to it, which would normally not bother me, except that a great effort has been made to highlight the list of celebrities who Shadow Creek counts as members. It feels forced - a clumsy demonstration of exclusivity to the plebeians.

We were met by the head professional, as nice a man as one could imagine and an excellent player who ascended from Old Del Monte to Spyglass before being lured to Las Vegas.

He seems calm and at ease, with an easy smile, yet looks can be deceiving. Later on, a delivery truck comes barreling down the access road and in an instant he is on the radio, barking to the guards that the offending driver be escorted off the premises and ordered never to return.

There is no question who is in charge at Shadow Creek.
 
Each foursome hits balls on their own private practice tee - with new Titleists. The turf is perfect, the targets beautifully defined. I inquired about our tee time: “Whenever we’re ready,” was the response.

My first reaction on the course was that Shadow Creek bears a striking resemblance to Sherwood. Both require a suspension of disbelief because of the strange environmental dichotomy. My body feels wicked heat, yet my eyes see a soothing creek meandering down a fairway lined with pine trees as if in Lake Tahoe.

Perhaps the illusion plays better in the winter, where the snow-covered peaks in the background give a different visual cue.
The other observation that struck me as we played the golf course is the feeling of absolute isolation of nearly every hole.

The golf course unfolds like 18 separate vignettes, although stylistically it blends together seamlessly - so much so that I have to concentrate hard to recall the sequence of holes.

Sometimes this can be perceived as a negative - implying that each hole is not as memorable as Pine Valley for example, but then there is a course like Chechessee Creek which is astoundingly good but flows along with the same common thread.

One aspect that drew attention to itself -at least in my mind - was the sensation of playing each hole in a separate canyon or culvert. It seems like every green complex was set in an intimate, tree-covered amphitheater, necessitating a walk straight up a hill to the cart path.

Shadow Creek constantly wriggles, changing direction so often that by the third hole, I was completely disoriented. It felt much like driving down the highways on Florida, with no landmarks in the distance to set your bearings - only dense foliage mile after mile.

Steve Wynn was apparently intent on making each hole its own presentation, but I wonder if the whole thing might have worked better if, after pushing up mountains of dirt on the perimeter of the property, they had thought about creating some meandering internal ridges for the holes to play over and around instead of individual valleys.

Because of this, it seems like there was a lack of internal hazards and contour in the fairways. Bunkers were set at the perimeter of the playing areas most of the time, clearly defining the preferred line to the hole.

However, because everything is presented in such a carefully arranged manner, the golf course has an antiseptic quality - a perfection that mirrors the Italian plaza at Caesars Palace. Perfect, but so flawless as to seem unreal.

Except for the trees. Thousands of them. It is said that Steve Wynn decided to triple the tree plantings on a whim, thinking the course looked too sparse. Yes, it is tree covered, which diverts attention away from the sensation of confinement and artificiality.

Oddly enough, for such a meticulously planned golf course, some of the trees are clearly blocking a portion of the putting surface, and in two cases are directly along the line of play in front of a bunker. In an effort to look as realistic as possible, perhaps Steve Wynn and Fazio purposely put in couple of Green Committee gaffes.

It is not surprising that my favorite hole on the golf course has the quirkiest feature. The 5th hole is a long par-4 with an elevated green with an entrance divided between a ramp on the left that nudges the ball onto the green, and a severe chute to the right.
Hit you approach one inch short and right and the ball is deposited to the bottom of a 30 foot fall-off, leaving a blind wedge back up the hill. Great stuff - and a fun feature for the #1 handicap hole.

But for the most part, there is a lack of clever feature work or unexpected surprises. It seems the goal was to create something of astounding beauty, and to that end Fazio did a wonderful job. It is simple, and in truth, remarkably restrained.

Is it full of pointless eye candy? No, everything is there for a purpose, I just prefer more strategic content. It seems designed as an idyllic walk in the park not intended to stretch anyone’s intellect.

Given the same opportunity, I shudder to think what Ted Robinson would have produced.

That said, the cliff top waterfall 17th looked like a set from the movie “Blue Lagoon.” A hopelessly phony and out of place architectural non-sequitur given the restraint of the prior 16 holes. But even so, it was breathtakingly gorgeous and I’ll be the first to admit it. Steve Wynn is a showman, and there was no way he could resist the big finish.

I walked off the 17th tee and pulled aside the shrubbery behind the back markers. It summed up the wonder of Shadow Creek in one look. On one side, a horribly ugly wasteland of filthy railroad cars and a factory belching smoke into the scorching afternoon heat.

Now turn around and look down at a sparkling pond, with a cascading waterfall misting the walkway to a tiny green. We were told that Michael Jackson would often sit on a rock in front of the falls and stare for hours at a time.

I averted my eyes under the theory that because nobody is quite sure what causes pedophilia, it was best not to take chances.

The 18th hole is certainly eye-catching, a reachable par-5 over a creek-fed pond. Strategically, it works well and visually, the whole look is stunning. The clubhouse appears simple and tasteful, with nothing that detracts from the hole.

Strangely, the only flashy element on the property is Steve Wynn’s house - an enormous structure on the far side of the 18th fairway with golden roof tiles and a garden area with not a leaf out of place.

Our group was trying to come up with an unqualified evaluation riding in the limo back to the hotel, but it was difficult to put our collective fingers on exactly what we thought.

Taken just as a golf course, it is not in the class of NGLA, Shinnecock or Pine Valley, mostly because there is no escaping the feeling of unreality and detachment from the environment. Yet for what it is, an engineering miracle of Lido-esque proportions, Shadow Creek almost belongs in its own category.

If it does not represent a truly great golf course, it stands as a demonstration what is possible with a genius architect and unlimited money.

And isn’t that what Las Vegas is really about?

New York New York is not really Manhattan, Caesars Palace is not really Italy, but the pastrami and pasta taste nearly as good.

Shadow Creek may not really be a great golf course in the purest sense of the word, but it is a great creation and completely unlike anything else in the world.

To that end, it deserves all the kudos it gets and more.              

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How good is Shadow Creek???
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2010, 05:09:23 PM »

Shadow Creek may not really be a great golf course in the purest sense of the word, but it is a great creation and completely unlike anything else in the world.

To that end, it deserves all the kudos it gets and more.              

Fun read, just as fun to play! Well written! ;D
« Last Edit: November 29, 2010, 06:37:57 PM by William Grieve »
It's all about the golf!

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How good is Shadow Creek???
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2010, 05:15:54 PM »
good read as usual, Gib.

My question is probably best answered by our resident archies.

Do you think the design and most particularly the construction techniques utilized at SC, have made anything more efficient as a matter of learning new construction techniques or manipulating the interface of machines and terrain?  For instance, building the artificial stream, or how to move ground to achieve a certain presentation?   I forget the name of the company that did the stream design, I think it was a sub of Wadsworth, but I believe they did the stream at Barona after SC.  If so, and more streams like this have been attempted, did SC start a body of learned techniques that translate to more efficient and improving efforts each time that sort of thing is attempted?  Does the efforts made for tree and other plantings, inspire any other archies to attempt similar?  

Or, in a contrarian sort of way, did SC teach other designers that it is wasteful and while anything can be done for the money, isn't a desirable goal to go about things so extravagantly, and really added nothing to the body of knowledge within the GCA's repetoire? That essentially, all that was done there was always within the realm of the possible, but who actually wants to go to those extremes to create golf courses?
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Matt_Ward

Re: How good is Shadow Creek???
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2010, 05:45:00 PM »
Gib:

If that's how you see Shadow Creek -- then a place like Bayonne will be akin to out-of-body golf experience.

One other thing -- Fazio has done better with less resources (if such a thing is possible for him) and with far less hype.

Curious to know -- how high among all courses would you place Shadow Creek ? Do you see SC being beyond the likes of WV ?

Stewart Abramson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How good is Shadow Creek???
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2010, 05:50:09 PM »
Gib  - That was a Shadow Creek of a post... or better.

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How good is Shadow Creek???
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2010, 09:12:07 PM »
When I was at USC I should have taken some type of writing class.  This post is like listening to Pink Floyd, how on earth does he come up with this stuff?


We were told that Michael Jackson would often sit on a rock in front of the falls and stare for hours at a time.

I averted my eyes under the theory that because nobody is quite sure what causes pedophilia, it was best not to take chances.
          

I can guarantee that this is the first time in GCA history that pedophilia has been mentioned.  Classic.

John Chilver-Stainer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How good is Shadow Creek???
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2010, 01:52:22 PM »
Gib,

another great read from a literary hero - seeing you're a Hunter Thompson fan and doing that Las Vegas thing - have you any subversive books with the publishers?

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How good is Shadow Creek???
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2010, 02:18:01 PM »
What is a typical tip budget for playing Shadow Creek?  Limo, bag boy, caddie, shoe guy...anyone else?

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How good is Shadow Creek???
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2010, 02:20:23 PM »
A couple Franklins ought to do the job tip wise.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How good is Shadow Creek???
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2010, 02:23:55 PM »
A couple Franklins ought to do the job tip wise.

First time I've missed Redanman in years.

astavrides

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How good is Shadow Creek???
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2010, 02:31:49 PM »
.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2010, 03:20:33 PM by astavrides »

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How good is Shadow Creek???
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2010, 02:38:14 PM »
Gib,
Why are all your paragraphs only 2 or sometimes 3 lines long?  Is it like a sitcom, where you have to have a punchline and wait for the laugh track every 10 seconds of dialogue?  There is some clever stuff in there, I hasten to note, I just find it a bit harder to read with all the paragraph breaks.

If you are ever lucky enough to talk to Gib in person you will be happy for a paragraph break.

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How good is Shadow Creek???
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2010, 05:57:30 PM »
Couple of funny things happened when I played Shadow Creek.  A high roller friend extended an invite to join him which was great considering the whole thing including the limo to the course was comped.  Anyway, this guy is an awful golfer and we get to the course and we're out on the range and one of the guys from the course recognizes him and tells him to be careful - seems that the last time he was there he shanked one on the range and killed one of the birds - hard to keep a straight face and not laugh at your host.  Then we're out playing and we get to the par 3 on the back which is over water and he hits one into one of the rocks around the green - turns out the rock is made out of metal and the sound was outrageous.  As far as the course goes, I would suggest that it is one of the wonders of the world and just shows what money can buy - it is something that you should not miss but I would be reluctant to spend $500 to play it.

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: How good is Shadow Creek???
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2010, 06:17:39 PM »
It's just like most things in Las Vegas--unreal, manufactured, over-the-top pretentious, gawdy, fake, etc.  But also an engineering feat and a construction masterpiece.  If you look at it as an unbelievable creation, and not as a lasting golf course, you'll like it.
I once played Sand Hills in the morning and Shadow Creek the same day in the afternoon; the fellow I was with wrote an article about playing the most natural course in America and the most unnatural in the same day.

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