[Sven Nilsen]

If we break the course into thirds, I see it this way:

1-6 - A great starting stretch, with 3 and 6 being my favorite holes of the bunch, almost like two mini crescendos to start the round.

7-12 - Where you earn your stripes.  Plenty of chances to make a big number.  I see the middle stretch being about surviving, there are plenty of chances to try to be the hero (drive on 8, going for 9, flirting with the right side on 11), but often the best play is to err on the conservative side.

13-18 - Without doubt the most memorable stretch on the course.  It contains the quirkiest hole (14), the best green site (15), the best bunker (13), the best par 3 (17) and probably the most difficult green (16).  18, to me, is a let down, but mostly because I never seem to execute well to close out the round.

I'd rank them last third, first third, middle third.  But this in no way denigrates the quality of the holes from 7 to 12.  In fact, I think it benefits the overall routing, in that you've been sucked into the round by the first six, have to survive the challenge of the middle six, and get to enjoy some of the most exciting holes to close out the round.  The routing at BT is as much about the variety of holes as it is about the building of anticipation.  If the middle third outshined the closing third, I'd be left with an empty feeling while trudging back into the dunes.  To me, the middle third fits in with the feel of the entire course, perfectly.  In short, you may see this stretch as a letdown, I see it as a link, connecting a great start to a great finish, challenging the golfer without overshadowing either of its neighbors.

Let's break down the middle third a little more (comments below).

Sven:

The issue is does the middle stretch of holes equal the one prior and post at BT. If you think it does then you see things completely different than I and likely others as well.

See above.

The 6th, I concede, is one of the best holes in the middle stretch -- likely the most strategic and thought provoking.

Agreed, but we're moving this hole into the first third.

The 7th is simply bombs away from the tee and then have a relatively mid to long approach shot.

No love for the approach or what you deal with on the green (there are a myriad of great pin positions here)?  How about the nature of the tee ball, which guides you away from the hazard on the right straight into the bunkers on the left.  One of the many "tricks" deployed to catch the careless player.

The 8th is a letdown -- just a short par-4 hole with little real qualities to it. Hold the hole against the other classic short par-4 holes at Bandon and you see the 8th as nothing more than a bit player.

A letdown?  Take another look at the green and how it shrugs away any approach from the right side of the fairway.  Take another look at the recovery options if you've blasted it left of the green.  Take a look at the options you have from 100 yds out.  There is alot more going on here than meets the eye.  Against PD 6 and 16, 3 and 7 at OM and 14 at BT, it may take a backseat.  But if we compare it to 1 at PD, 14 at BD, 1, 9, 13 and 14 at OM and 1 at BT, I think it holds up pretty favorably.  I've never walked up to the tee on this hole and felt anything other than excitement. 

The 9th is just a yardage-eater -- very little to it and frankly you play three shots to then hit a green which is fairly pedestrian.

If its just a yardage-eater, why is it so many players I've seen seem to struggle getting down in 5.  You have to execute 2 or 3 good shots to get home, and the way the hole seems to narrow as you approach the long narrow green adds a bit of a pucker factor.  Its subtle the whole way, and when you're playing into the green, there's just enough defense to push away an offline approach.

The 10th is what you mentioned -- a weak hole.

Why is it a weak hole.  I'd like to hear your reasoning.  Is it simply a factor of comparing it to what you've played already and whats to follow?

The 11th is all tee shot -- the approach is fairly basic and quite simplistic.

Umbrage taken on this point.  A downhill approach from what is most likely an uneven lie to a green that is immense, so that distance judgment is paramount.  I'd hardly call this simplistic.  Add in the water lurking on the right and you've got a shot that never feels comfortable.  Even if you hit the green, you still could be left with a putt of 60 or 70 feet.   

The 12th is what you also mentioned -- one-dimensional -- a long approach with little to distinguish itself.

One-dimensional, but still fun.  As its a long par 3, I'm pretty damn happy if I walk away with par.

I admitted the approach at #13 is special -- the aproach to the green is one of the best at BT.

Agreed, and now we're into the last third.  I've just played 6 holes with a ton of variety that called for me to hit draws, fades, short shots and long shots.  As mentioned above, if I executed well, I probably have a good round going with a good test coming up to close things out.  Hopefully I'm walking up to the 13th tee with all the confidence I need to tackle what may be the toughest stretch at the resort.

C&C -- did a fairly solid job at BT -- but the beginning and ending stretch of holes is what makes playing the course special -- the middle is really a snoozefest given the high bar of design they generally provide in my opinion.

[Matt_Ward]

Sven:

We see things vastly different on BT -- you are enamored with the entire course and frankly the concessions you have made are so minor as to almost be laughable.

The first third of BT is good -- very good in spots.

The middle third is far from being as sensational as you claim. How so? Compare the first third or the last third and the analysis will show that to be the case.

The middle doesn't have the detailing and sheer array of meaningful alternate options as the other holes. The tee shots are fairly mundane and the green complexes are often very rudimentary given the high style and results one associates with C&C.

You won't convince me -- no doubt I have not done likewise.

Sven, "letdown" is too kind a word to desecribe the holes in that sequence -- disappointing would be one I would use.

So be it ... for you & me.

[Sven Nilsen]

Matt:

Let's clear up a couple of things:

1.  "Sensational" is your word.  I'd probably use a word like "fitting" or "complementary" to describe 7-12.

2.  I'm glad you find some humor in my words, even the concessions.

3.  I'm still interested in hearing why you think 10 is weak, you're not off the hook yet.

I'm vexed that your analysis is limited to viewing the second third at BT in a vacuum, rather than examining, in addition to the individual merits of the holes, their placement in the 6 hole stretch and especially the interplay of this section of the course with the entire 18 hole routing.  Every course has its highpoints and every course has its pauses, but its how they're woven together that makes for a better whole. 

This "discussion" is another reason why Bandon as a whole is such a great golf destination.  There's enough diversity in the styles of the courses to provide a flavor for everyone.

Finally, to quote an earlier poster (you), "the back and forth dialogues aren't about right and wrong -- just trying to dig deeper into the reasoning for such choices."  You've heard my reasoning, I'd like to hear some more of yours.

[Ross Waldorf]

It's interesting how subjective all of this gets. I was one who pretty much agreed with Matt on the Trails, in the sense that the middle portion of the course was always a bit less interesting to me when I'd played it in 2005. Having just come back from a trip to Bandon this past September, I found that section of the course more interesting and really look forward to playing it more in the future. I think that as Sven says, those holes generally contain much more subtle features that for me tended to become more interesting after playing the course several times, then not playing it for years and returning to rediscover what was happening back there in the woods. And also for me, the simple pleasures of walking through those peaceful, very quiet places really adds to the enjoyment of the course. There are great pleasures to be had simply from the feel of the forest that don't exist on any of the other three courses. That intangible feeling means a lot to me when I evaluate a golf course, although simple tranquility without some strategic interest isn't going to add up to much. The variety is one of the things that makes the entire complex such an incredible place. Having said that, I'm not really interested in debating the particulars -- we all have our opinions and will likely stick with them. Which is, of course, just fine.

Count me in the group that really loves the 15th at Pacific Dunes, by the way. I just love to play that hole. Although if I were to rank it among the four par 5s at Pacific, I'd probably have a tough time placing it higher than 3rd after 3 and 18. However, I think the hole is absolutely fantastic, and I think that speaks to the quality of the course in general, which is really pretty incredible. One of the most interesting things I was looking forward to this past September, with all the accolades given to Old Macdonald, was to see if that course might just edge out Pacific Dunes as my all time favorite golf course. What I found was that for me (somewhat surprisingly, I must say) there is just no comparison. While Old Macdonald is an utterly spectacular golf course, and one that I'd easily rank in my top five, Pacific Dunes remains far above it for me. Pacific is a golf course that just gets me every time. What a place!

Cheers,
R

[Michael Dugger]

I'll take this little discussion in a different direction to counter Mr. Ward's position.

If the 6 - 13 stretch is weak, when compared to the rest of the course, I'd like to hear what is so great about #3, for example, a flat par 5.  It's about as wide as a freeway.  The green isn't anything earth shattering. 

[Matt_Ward]

Michael:

I agree w you -- how that's for starters -- never said the 3rd was great but consider the center-placed bunker and what the tee strategic elements are when playing it. The 3rd is certainly a better hole, in my mind, than the 9th.

Ross:

You say Pac is "far above" Old Mac.

Can you itemize some specifics to back that up ?

Sven:

Love the word-dancing you do -- look, you really see the middle third as being top shelf design stuff. Why dance around it - with state department tap-dance words such as "fitting" or "complimentary." At the end of the day you see the holes as good stuff.

Sven, you want a discussion of give and take. Then you need to do more of the "give" and less of the "take." I made points about the 6th and 13th holes to show that -- you have failed to say likewise -- the meek defense of the pedestrian tee shots on a few of the middle holes is proof enough for me. Ditto your defense of the disappointing contour-less greens found there -- the 9th and 11th being two good example, among others.

The 10th is just far away with little to fear -- being out to the right doesn't make the approach any more demanding. The green is also as big as Texas and frankly just about any shot into it will suffice. Tee shots are supposed to provide some clear differentiation as to the appropriate side to come from -- the 10th does nothing in that regard in my mind.

Sven, I've given my reasoning several times over. You can re-read it at your leisure. You see the middle section of BT as being just a hair behind the first and third portions. That is a big time overrearch on you rpart. So be it. C&C have done some marvelous designs with some really brilliant at times designs -- see the likes of Clear Creek in the Tahoe area and compare it to BT. Handsdown the Tahoe-located course wins between them.

[Ross Waldorf]

Matt:

Not really. I think there are all kinds of great strategic and routing features going on with both courses and clearly they are both world class. But there's an intangible quality that Pacific Dunes has for me that defies analysis. It has a lot to do with the intimacy and scale, plus a general sense that Pacific Dunes provides me with something akin to what I get from great art. It's not really analytical (even though virtually all the holes at Pacific Dunes can handle some pretty in-depth analysis) -- it's much more emotional. Therefore difficult to explain. Absolutely loved Old Mac though. There's just something about Pacific Dunes . . .
R

[Sven Nilsen]

Matt:

I'm back.

Sven:

Love the word-dancing you do -- look, you really see the middle third as being top shelf design stuff. Why dance around it - with state department tap-dance words such as "fitting" or "complimentary." At the end of the day you see the holes as good stuff.

In a vacuum, they are "good stuff".  In light of their meld with the course as a whole, they are "fitting" and "complementary."  As far as "complimentary," I have yet to play a golf hole that said "nice shot."

Sven, you want a discussion of give and take. Then you need to do more of the "give" and less of the "take." I made points about the 6th and 13th holes to show that -- you have failed to say likewise

 Until I hear from you an argument worth conceding to, I'll stick by my guns.

-- the meek defense of the pedestrian tee shots on a few of the middle holes is proof enough for me.

I happen to really like the tee shots at 7 (its all about setting up your approach without sacrificing distance), 8 (tons of choices), 9 (this one suits my eye, call it a personal preference), 10 (this is also in response to your comment below, but is there no question a shot hugging the left side is the best result?), 11 (especially with the new tee that makes it harder to bang it down the hill), 12 (a shot were the anticipation factor is high, one of those "keep watching" shots as most of the action takes place after the ball has found the ground and started rolling)

Ditto your defense of the disappointing contour-less greens found there -- the 9th and 11th being two good example, among others.

I've provided quotes from Ran's write up regarding the greens:  7 - "Unfortunately, there is no help above the day’s hole location either as the steep back to front pitch of the green leaves the golfer an unwanted downhill shot of some sort."  8 - "The hole’s ultimate defense is its elusive putting surface, which Coore calls ‘one of the best we’ve ever done.'" 9 - "This 9th green complex and the ninety yards prior are one of the ‘serene’ moments to which Coore refers." and "...Coore & Crenshaw’s show of restraint here at the 9th hole makes the experience of playing Bandon Trails all the better."  11 - "The scale of the green makes the hole." and "From that moment on, the notion of the pond and a large rolling green became a reality." 12 - Not going to quote here, just going to refer you to the write-up in its entirety, which puts the design here in some pretty heady company.  Unfortunately, Ran did not provide any comments on the green at the 10th, but suffice it to say, I think there's at least one other person out there who would find plenty of interest in the greens on this stretch.

The 10th is just far away with little to fear -- being out to the right doesn't make the approach any more demanding. The green is also as big as Texas and frankly just about any shot into it will suffice. Tee shots are supposed to provide some clear differentiation as to the appropriate side to come from -- the 10th does nothing in that regard in my mind.

See comments above re 10. I'd rather have an angle in to the front of the green that doesn't have to carry the bunker, especially when the pin is tucked on the right side.  Your dismissive comment regarding the size of the green and how any shot in will suffice is ludicrous.  This is a green where you want to pick a quadrant as your target.  Unless you are a world class putter and routinely make 60 foot two putts, being close is always better.  Thus, the added importance of being in the proper place in the fairway to attack the portion of the green containing the flag.  For a right pin, left is better.  For a left pin, I can understand playing a conservative drive to the right, as you'll have more green to work with, but you still have the option of challenging the bunkers on the left to remove the greenside bunker from play.  

Sven, I've given my reasoning several times over. You can re-read it at your leisure. You see the middle section of BT as being just a hair behind the first and third portions. That is a big time overrearch on you rpart. So be it. C&C have done some marvelous designs with some really brilliant at times designs -- see the likes of Clear Creek in the Tahoe area and compare it to BT. Handsdown the Tahoe-located course wins between them.

I have not played Clear Creek, but I have played a few other C&C designs.  BT may not have the best individual holes from the C&C repetoire, nor may it be the best course of theirs I've seen, but I in my opinion its the best routing and has the best flow.  The middle stretch contributes significantly to this summation.

[Matt_Ward]

Sven:

You ask me for straightforward comments without the predictable tone -- spare me the putdowns if I mispell a word. 

Sven, again you want discussion but you show no movement. It's your way or no way. Makes plenty of sense to me.

#9 is just a long hole -- it pales against other far better holes at the complex -- just see the 17th at Old Mac as one example. Nuff said on that front. The 10th is just a pedestrian hole - the tee shot is not taxed nor is it really strategic -- C&C fluffed up the surroundings with the bunkers but it's more eye-candy make-up to hide the featureless site that the hole occupies.

The 11th has a tee shot dimension but it's inadequate as an approach situation.

The 12th is your basic garden variety long par-3 -- zzzzzzz's.

You say BT has the best routing and best holes from the ones you have played. You need to play a few more. Clear Creek is miles beyond BT in the sheer diversity of holes, shots and green surroundings.

One last thing -- the middle stretch doesn't do much for any summation -- save for the word I mentioned previously -- disappointing and a letdown when held against the 1st and final 3rd sections.

Adios ...

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven:

#9 is just a long hole -- it pales against other far better holes at the complex -- just see the 17th at Old Mac as one example. Nuff said on that front.

Here is an example of exactly why I keep responding in this thread.  You make a statement, but don't back it up with meaningful discussion.  You can throw out as many supposed altruisms as you want, no one here will take them as such unless you explain yourself.  I happen to agree with Tim Bert on 17 at OM, its not my cup of tea, and you're making a bit of an apples and oranges comparison.  A more apt comparison might be to the other relatively subtle (by subtle here I mean not particularly full of bold features) par 5's at the complex, including 9 and 18 at BD and 12 and 15 at PD (I wouldn't call any of the par 5's at OM subtle).  I like BT 9 as much as or more than any of those holes.

 The 10th is just a pedestrian hole - the tee shot is not taxed nor is it really strategic -- C&C fluffed up the surroundings with the bunkers but it's more eye-candy make-up to hide the featureless site that the hole occupies.

I guess this is what good architects do, make the most of the site they are give to work with.  Take another look at 10, or report back after your next chance to play BT.  Trying to play to the extreme left without finding the bunker is no easy task.  I actually think the bunkers (fairway and greenside) make the hole by asking the player to deal with them on your first and second shots.  Any thoughts on my take on the strategic nature of the drive and the approach?

The 11th has a tee shot dimension but it's inadequate as an approach situation.

Baloney.  Its got elevation and hazards, not to mention, as described by Ran, "a large rolling green."  Play too far right, you flirt with the water, too far left and you're left with a pitch staring directly back at the hazard you just played away from.  What, exactly, is lacking?
 
The 12th is your basic garden variety long par-3 -- zzzzzzz's.

I've conceeded this hole is one-dimensional, however I'm won't concede that it is dismissable.  I'm a little confused as to what you mean by a "basic garden variety long par-3?"  I've copied the entire write-up of the 11th below to ask if this sounds "basic," "garden variety," "basic garden variety" or in any other way mundane.

Twelfth hole, 240 yards; Greens where the penalty is severe on all sides leave the golfer with a lack of choice: it is high demand architecture and the golfer must produce the required shot. Several of the world’s finest courses do this to great effect, highlighted by Oakmont Country Club and Pine Valley Golf Club. However, the notion of having one side tightly defended by obvious trouble (e.g. a deep, menacing bunker) while leaving the other sides apparently trouble free (e.g. tightly mown grass) held greater intrigue for many master architects, especially Dr. Alister MacKenzie. His 17th green complex at The West Course at Royal Melbourne is the all-time case in point. At the 12th at Bandon Trails, a tightly mown five foot knob right of the front edge of the green may not appear as devilish as the scrub and bunkers left but it has the same ability to make a mess of one’s score. Though visually the first timer won’t believe it, the place to miss the tee ball is on line with the green and short.

You say BT has the best routing and best holes from the ones you have played. You need to play a few more. Clear Creek is miles beyond BT in the sheer diversity of holes, shots and green surroundings.

I have not played Clear Creek, but from the sounds of it, it must be special.  I'm interested to know what you mean by "miles beyond"  and how much of that difference is due to the site, the budget or simply an evolved design philosophy.

One last thing -- the middle stretch doesn't do much for any summation -- save for the word I mentioned previously -- disappointing and a letdown when held against the 1st and final 3rd sections.

I guess this is where we diverge in our course analysis.  I would never look at a group of holes without thinking about how they fit in to the overall scheme.  I can understand the argument that a particular stretch can detract from the value of the course as a whole, but in this case I think the middle stretch at BT holds up on its own while making the sum of all three parts stronger than they would be individually.

Adios ...

You keep saying goodbye, yet you keep coming back.  Admit it, I'm irresistible.

[Gib_Papazian]

#12 at Bandon Trails is hardly a snooze. Has anyone noticed the enormous knob to the right of the putting surface, complicating any bailout away from the trouble on the left side? Putt it? Chip it into the mound? Flop it over off a tight lie? This hole is subtly difficult.

I also cannot grasp all the whining about #14. Stand on a terrace tee and hook a three-wood. Then, bail out to the left of the putting surface. If you get it up and down, you make par. If not, then bogey. How do you manage to make snowman there?

[Sven Nilsen]

I'll take this little discussion in a different direction to counter Mr. Ward's position.

If the 6 - 13 stretch is weak, when compared to the rest of the course, I'd like to hear what is so great about #3, for example, a flat par 5.  It's about as wide as a freeway.  The green isn't anything earth shattering. 

Michael -

To answer the question, there are a couple of reasons why I like 3.  The obvious answer is in the seamlessness of the transition from the dunes to the wooded area.  But this doesn't really speak to the playing characteristics of the hole.

3 to me is the first hole at BT where you feel at ease, Its the first opportunity to swing away without feeling pinched in. The first tee, regardless of the width of the fairway, always feels like a tough shot for me.  I know there's plenty of room out there, yet its hard to trust that feeling.  As for the approach, the pinch is pretty obvious by the way the dunes protect the entrance to the green.  The tee shot on the second, for reasons I can't really explain, is just as uncomfortable.  You can see everything, yet the shot still looks impossible.  I think alot of it is due to the elevation drop, and how a shot that starts on line can drift during descent and you're suddenly left with a recovery from the left bunkers or, even worse, teh scrub beyond.

When you walk up to the third tee, you're greeted with an immense fairway.  Your mind immediately relaxes, the swing feels more comfortable and you really feel like the round has begun.  This is exactly where C&C gets you, as the key is to still keep the trouble in mind.  

The green may not be earth shattering, but there's a falloff on the back to punish the overzealous and enough pinnable spots on the left and right sides to make your layup in the fairway a strategic question.  There's a bit of deception going on with the right side, as the green is much deeper than it appears from the fairway making it hard to accurately judge and/or trust the distance.

[William_G]

Bill G:

The measurement of greatness at BT is because one can lose a dozen or so golf balls.

OK - now I get it.

hahaha, no, that's why many like Old Mac... and Trails is difficult, especiallly for double digit handicappers, so many don't like it 
 
Also FWIW, #10 is difficult because of the wind that you forget is from your right in the summer, and then you wind up in the left waste area or forest, very subtle,

thanks

[Matt_Ward]

Sven:

My final comments to you --

I have explained myself many times. The strategic qualities of the 17th are miles ahead of the 9th at BT. There are a range of options for each shot you encounter there -- the green is also miles beyond in terms of the challenges you face -- should you miss to either side or even if one hits the target.

Frankly, it gets tiresome to deal with stuck in the muds types who want others to bend to their way of thinking but never concede even the simplest of points when made time after time.

The 9th at BT is simply a long hole -- it doesn't have the qualities of an earlier par-5 hole at BT -- the 3rd.

I think you are dead flat wrong on the 10th -- I stand by what I said previously -- non-descript land that added a bunker here and there but frankly one of the really lame holes on BT.

Give me a freakin break about the 11th -- the tee shot is the whole essence of the hole. The approach is fairly pedestrian -- when I hear about a rolling green you make it sound like it had contours equivalent to what you see at Oakmont or Oakland Hills / South -- c'mon, Sven put down the pipe you're smoking on that one.

The 12th is just a long par-3 -- plain and simple. Please don't continue with the hilarity and link this hole to the likes of Oakmont's 8th or PV's 5th. That's comedy of the highest order.

Sven, Clear Creek possesses a piece of land that C&C took to another level. Coore did a sensational job in never providing for a dull moment. The land is complimented by his desire to incorporate first rate putting saurfaces that actually do force the player to appropach from a given side in order to gain the best angle. The course is also geared towards membership play so that it's not a slog or simply too demanding to be played. If you get an opportunity I'd be interested in your comments.

[Sven Nilsen]

Matt:

You are wrong on every count.  I'll have more to say on this later.

Sven

[Mark Kinney]

Tom and Jim,

Regarding #10 and #12 OM...

I don't mind the tee shot on #10.  Sometimes it's difficult to pick an appropriate line for different players.  It's the green site that that is too extreme.  If the front of the green was the same height as say #15 Pacific, I would probably even like the hole.  Even a well struck shot is hard to chase up that hill, and don't even think about trying to fly it in there downwind.

The same goes for #12.  Just too big a slope on both sides of the green for the majority of players to have a chance.  I've witnessed as many players "ping-pong" their shots from one side to the other as I have seen on #14 Trails.

Two questions:

#10:  What % of golfers have you seen go over the back of the green and down into the bunker on #5?  That's the only part of the hole which worried me.  I was surprised how often I saw players fly it to the green and hold it in the early days of play, but I wasn't there much with a stiff summer wind.

#12:  It is EXTREMELY difficult to get the ball to stay on the green from over the back right, I will grant you that.  But do many players really start playing ping-pong after a missed tee shot left?  If not, then I would suggest you all need to reevaluate how you look at the hole.

Tom,

#10:  Well less than 5% for me.  I'd guess less than 5 total all summer long.  At the same time, I'd guess the GIR stat is also less than 5%.  The bunkering in the fairway off the tee causes so much havoc a lot of players simply don't have a realistic shot at the green in regulation.  Most second shots are front and center, with a smaller percentage ending up just left of the green between bunker and green (probably the best miss)

#12:  I had one player in each of my last two loops end up long and right, and yes, played ping pong from there.  It is just a VERY hard green to hold.  I'd put the GIR stat much like #10, less than 5%.  It doesn't even seem to discriminate on skill level.  I've seen very skilled players not hit the green routinely.  At the Battle at Bandon (club pro-am in October) our group pro was former touring pro and he missed the green, I believe both rounds.  Key difference good players tend to miss short and left and get up and down.

Tom D,
Sorry it took so long to reply.  Got busy at Thanksgiving, and the weather down here in Scottsdale has been so good (unlike the rest of the country, lucky us!!) that I have only had a couple of days off.

OM #10...
I would agree with Bodimer that it is about 5% of players that you see in the back bunker, during the normal summer North wind.  I attribute most of that to the fact that the caddies try to encourage the players to run their shots up the front of the green instead of trying to carry it onto the green. 
Now of those players that thought they could fly it on and hold it, that percentage is significantly higher.  If a player in our group tried to flly it on with just about any helping wind, I would start laughing, and tell my players to "watch where this ends up". 
Most players end up short or to the right of the green, and really struggle to get up and down.  Most players, and many very good ones, just don't possess the types of shots that are needed to be successful there.  That goes for all the courses at Bandon though.

OM #12...
Once again, most players do not possess the skills needed when they miss that green, and it is a VERY difficult green to hit! The "average" player will miss that green to the right, because that is his shot shape.  No matter where you want him to go, that's where it's going to end up.
I love to hit head high knockdowns into that green, and try to chase it up the hill.  If the flag is in the middle to right side, I feel that my miss is short.  Where as any left side hole locations, I want to miss long and left, which is a reasonable up and down.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom D,
Sorry it took so long to reply.  Got busy at Thanksgiving, and the weather down here in Scottsdale has been so good (unlike the rest of the country, lucky us!!) that I have only had a couple of days off.

OM #10...
I would agree with Bodimer that it is about 5% of players that you see in the back bunker, during the normal summer North wind.  I attribute most of that to the fact that the caddies try to encourage the players to run their shots up the front of the green instead of trying to carry it onto the green. 
Now of those players that thought they could fly it on and hold it, that percentage is significantly higher.  If a player in our group tried to flly it on with just about any helping wind, I would start laughing, and tell my players to "watch where this ends up". 
Most players end up short or to the right of the green, and really struggle to get up and down.  Most players, and many very good ones, just don't possess the types of shots that are needed to be successful there.  That goes for all the courses at Bandon though.

OM #12...
Once again, most players do not possess the skills needed when they miss that green, and it is a VERY difficult green to hit! The "average" player will miss that green to the right, because that is his shot shape.  No matter where you want him to go, that's where it's going to end up.
I love to hit head high knockdowns into that green, and try to chase it up the hill.  If the flag is in the middle to right side, I feel that my miss is short.  Where as any left side hole locations, I want to miss long and left, which is a reasonable up and down.

Mark,

Thanks for the response.  Music to my ears, everything you said in your second paragraph about #12.  How many holes today ask you to try a head-high knockdown shot?  And on how many holes is it so difficult to miss the green in the obvious place to preserve a chance at a three?

As for #10, I would never try to fly it on the green myself when it's downwind, unless my opponent has already done so to within ten feet.  I will take my chances on getting up and down from the front or right side with my trusty blade putter, if my approach doesn't climb up the bank.  It would have been hard to get the green another five yards deep and very awkward to get another ten yards out of it, and I just didn't think it would make much difference, that most people would not hold an aerial approach anyway.

[Tim Bert]

Frankly, it gets tiresome to deal with stuck in the muds types who want others to bend to their way of thinking but never concede even the simplest of points when made time after time.

I've been out of this debate for a while because it has been fruitless, but I can't resist the urge to ask the obvious... Which of the below comments represent your concessions?  Or is it only the person that you debate that is expected to bend their ways?  How can you make comments like above and not appreciate the irony as it relates to your position?

The 9th at BT is simply a long hole -- it doesn't have the qualities of an earlier par-5 hole at BT -- the 3rd.

I think you are dead flat wrong on the 10th -- I stand by what I said previously -- non-descript land that added a bunker here and there but frankly one of the really lame holes on BT.

Give me a freakin break about the 11th -- the tee shot is the whole essence of the hole. The approach is fairly pedestrian -- when I hear about a rolling green you make it sound like it had contours equivalent to what you see at Oakmont or Oakland Hills / South -- c'mon, Sven put down the pipe you're smoking on that one.

The 12th is just a long par-3 -- plain and simple. Please don't continue with the hilarity and link this hole to the likes of Oakmont's 8th or PV's 5th. That's comedy of the highest order.

[Pete_Pittock]

With the King's Putter headed there this weekend thought I bring up this thread.
My choices by hole number, rest in parentheses
1. Old Macdonald  4 (2d-BD, 3d PD, 4th BT)
2. Pacific Dunes    4 (OM, BD, BT)
3. Bandon Trails    5 (PD,OM,BD)
4. Bandon Dunes  4 (PD, BT, OM)
5. Bandon Dunes  4 (PD, OM, BT)
6. Pacific Dunes    4 (OM, BD, BT)
7. Old Macdonald  4 (PD, BT, BD)
8. Bandon Trails    4 (PD, BD, OM)
9. Old Macdonald  4 (PD, BT, BD)
Out Nine Par 37
10. Old Macdoanld 4 (PD, BT, BD)
11. Pacific Dunes   3 (OM, BD, BT)
12. Bandon Dunes 3 (OM, BT, PD)
13. Pacific Dunes   4 (BT, OM, BD
14. Bandon Dunes 4 (PD, BT, OM)
15. Bandon Trails   4 (BD, OM, PD)
16. Old Macdonald 4 (BD, PD, BT)
17. Bandon Trails   3 (OM, PD, BD)
18. Paciific Dunes  5 (OM, BT, BD)
In Nine Par 34, Total Par 71
Bandon Dunes and Bandon Trails each have 4 holes, Pacific Dunes and Old Macdonald each have 5 holes in the first ranks
The second tier have Old Macdonald and Pac Dunes breakthrough, they have 14 of the 18 holes, with PD leading with 8.

 

[Howard Riefs]

Golf Digest's Matt Ginella posted a top Bandon list from his August 2011 buddies triip:

A few of us took the time to list our favorite 18 holes, but we broke it down by best first hole, best second hole, etc.

Hole No. 1: Bandon Dunes. There isn’t a great starting hole to any of the courses, so this is the best of the worst.

No. 2: Trails. One of my favorite par 3s on property, it’s an early indication that Trails is a challenge.

No. 3: Pacific. A hulking par 5 that usually plays into the wind and ends with a green that offers Pacific’s first close-up view of the Pacific Ocean.

No. 4: Pacific. One of the best par 4s in the world. If it plays downwind, you have to pinch your drive between a bunker and the edge of the earth, and then you have to negotiate a well-protected green

No. 5: Bandon. Another one of the best par 4s in the world (it’s a long list), it’s more about the approach than it is the tee shot.

No. 6: Bandon. A par 3 along the water, but this isn’t a runaway. I voted for Pacific’s 316-yard par 4, others voted for Old Mac’s 555-yard par 5, which is where you’ll find Hell Bunker.

No. 7: Pacific. The best hole at Pacific that’s not on the water is also the No. 1 handicap. Great hole requires a big tee shot and an accurate approach.

No. 8: Trails. One of the shortest par 4s at the resort -- 321 yards -- is also one of my favorites. I’ve often been tempted to pull driver, but I never do.

No. 9: Pacific. We voted based on playing to the lower green. When you play the upper green, the hole is pretty generic.

No. 10: Pacific. Great par 3, back into the wind and out to the water.

No. 11: Pacific. Another short and scruffy par 3 on the water.

No. 12: Bandon. The first hole built on property is a par 3 back into the wind and out to the water.

No. 13: Pacific. This is a double-diamond test of your swing and skills. It’s an uphill 444-yard par 4, into the wind and ultimately offers a satisfying view of the coast and your accomplishments from the back of the green, assuming you get there and can salvage an official score.

No. 14: Old Mac. A 370-yard par 4, uphill and from the green, offers a great view of the rest of the course.

No. 15: Old Mac. My vote here was for Pacific’s 15th, but again, I got outvoted.

No. 16: Bandon (pictured). Like I said above, it’s a great hole once you get to the green and take in the view.

No. 17: Old Mac. Once you get back behind the dune at Old Mac, the course has an appealing finish. Downwind, the 546-yard par 5 is
reachable in two.

No. 18: Old Mac. Love the punch-bowl green at the 469-yard par 4, and don’t love any of the other three finishing holes, although the 18th at Pacific is growing on me.
 
Final Tally: Pacific (7), Bandon (5), Old Mac (4), Trails (2).

The Ultimate 18: Par would be 70 (35/35), with three par 5s, five par 3s and 10 par 4s. The yardage would be 6,622 yards from the black tees; 6,012 yards from the green tees.



Read More http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/blogs/wheres-matty-g/2011/08/my-buddies-trip-to-bandon-dune.html#ixzz1YWbdzHve

[Howard Riefs]

Golf Digest's Matt Ginella posted a top Bandon list from his August 2011 buddies triip:

A few of us took the time to list our favorite 18 holes, but we broke it down by best first hole, best second hole, etc.


Hole No. 1: Bandon Dunes. There isn’t a great starting hole to any of the courses, so this is the best of the worst.

No. 2: Trails. One of my favorite par 3s on property, it’s an early indication that Trails is a challenge.

No. 3: Pacific. A hulking par 5 that usually plays into the wind and ends with a green that offers Pacific’s first close-up view of the Pacific Ocean.

No. 4: Pacific. One of the best par 4s in the world. If it plays downwind, you have to pinch your drive between a bunker and the edge of the earth, and then you have to negotiate a well-protected green

No. 5: Bandon. Another one of the best par 4s in the world (it’s a long list), it’s more about the approach than it is the tee shot.

No. 6: Bandon. A par 3 along the water, but this isn’t a runaway. I voted for Pacific’s 316-yard par 4, others voted for Old Mac’s 555-yard par 5, which is where you’ll find Hell Bunker.

No. 7: Pacific. The best hole at Pacific that’s not on the water is also the No. 1 handicap. Great hole requires a big tee shot and an accurate approach.

No. 8: Trails. One of the shortest par 4s at the resort -- 321 yards -- is also one of my favorites. I’ve often been tempted to pull driver, but I never do.

No. 9: Pacific. We voted based on playing to the lower green. When you play the upper green, the hole is pretty generic.

No. 10: Pacific. Great par 3, back into the wind and out to the water.

No. 11: Pacific. Another short and scruffy par 3 on the water.

No. 12: Bandon. The first hole built on property is a par 3 back into the wind and out to the water.

No. 13: Pacific. This is a double-diamond test of your swing and skills. It’s an uphill 444-yard par 4, into the wind and ultimately offers a satisfying view of the coast and your accomplishments from the back of the green, assuming you get there and can salvage an official score.

No. 14: Old Mac. A 370-yard par 4, uphill and from the green, offers a great view of the rest of the course.

No. 15: Old Mac. My vote here was for Pacific’s 15th, but again, I got outvoted.

No. 16: Bandon (pictured). Like I said above, it’s a great hole once you get to the green and take in the view.

No. 17: Old Mac. Once you get back behind the dune at Old Mac, the course has an appealing finish. Downwind, the 546-yard par 5 is
reachable in two.

No. 18: Old Mac. Love the punch-bowl green at the 469-yard par 4, and don’t love any of the other three finishing holes, although the 18th at Pacific is growing on me.
 
Final Tally: Pacific (7), Bandon (5), Old Mac (4), Trails (2).

The Ultimate 18: Par would be 70 (35/35), with three par 5s, five par 3s and 10 par 4s. The yardage would be 6,622 yards from the black tees; 6,012 yards from the green tees.



 http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/blogs/wheres-matty-g/2011/08/my-buddies-trip-to-bandon-dune.html#ixzz1YWbdzHve

[Mike Viscusi]

An old thread but I wasn't a member at the time, so here goes my Dream 18 at Bandon (favorite 18, not the best of the 1st holes, best of the 2nd holes, etc). 

In the interest of full disclosure, I will say that I have never been to Bandon so my selections are pretty worthless  , but I've been somewhat obsessed over studying the courses lately and pouring over Ran's reviews, Photo Tours on GCA, aerial images and the Bandon website.  So maybe a more appropriate title for my Dream 18 is the 18 holes at the resort I am most looking forward to seeing someday.  Anyway, here goes:

Par 3's
PD 10, 11
BD 15
BT 5, 12

I suppose 12 at Bandon Trails would be the controversial pick amongst my Par 3's, and obviously you could pick almost any of the one-shotters at the Resort, but I like it's length, especially compared to my other relatively short Par 3's, and the many false illusions it presents from the tee (i.e. that there is nothing but trouble from tee to green and that bailing out right is a smart play).  Looks to be a great long par 3 on a relatively flat piece of land that is very tough to make a 3 but generally won't kill your scorecard either.

Par 4's
PD 4, 6, 13
BT 11, 14
BD 4, 16
OM 3, 16

14 at Trails is the obvious pick to take issue with but until I get the chance to play it and (possibly) see that the approach and green is just too penal, I will keep it in because I think it's an incredibly interesting hole and one that I will most certainly be looking forward to seeing.

Par 5's
PD 3
BT 3
OM 6, 17

Is it fair to say that the strength of all the courses as a whole are the Par 3's and 4's?  Those were the hardest for me to narrow down, whereas I felt it was tough identifying really great Par 5's.  Not that a number of the 5's don't present great challenge and interest but they just don't seem as memorable or holes that you would label as World Class, as you can do with several of the 3's and 4's.

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