[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick


I love your answers, it’s the old story of the best form of defence is to attack.

Melvyn,

Do you ever look in the mirror ?
We're having a debate.  You present your position as if it's "The Gospel"  and deem any counter argument as an attack.
How convenient of you to demonize opinions contrary to yours

Your comment is rather interesting, yet you make no reference to rain which also has its effect upon play and the ball.
Melvyn, feel free to start a thread on "rain" or sleet and snow, and the ball, but, this thread is about the effect of the wind, which on some sites is almost always present

It’s a simple statement, rain, wind, snow or sun are not always present.

Doesn't that depend upon where you play.
At Seminole, right on the ocean, the wind is almost constant

These hazards attributed to God and not one of our jolly architects/designers are just that HAZARDS, albeit periodic ones. IF the weather is great that day do you miss their interface with the course and your game, no of course not.

Not true.

The sport, game and challenge are made better, enhanced by the introduction of the wind,
whereas, I can do without the rain.

The weather is an addition hazard, rain as with snow and wind can affect the ball both in air and on land, alternatively when they are not present then no affect.

Bu, that's not the FOCUS of this thread.
This thread is specifically about the WIND.
If you'd like to start a thread on the rain or snow, or no wind, please feel free to do so

If they are not present or active how can anyone deal with a non-event or no show.

The same way one can eat and enjoy a cake without the icing

WHAT! What has that to do with golf, wind – oh I see icing gives you wind

I'm glad you figured that out

Pat I believe you are making a simple issue complicated.

I think you'd change your mind if you'd played Seminole and NGLA

Pat, my experience of golf if that is is far from complicated, many try and make it complicated. By why to show they play golf love the game or just like to try and understand the science of a game. Which alfter all is all it is ‘a game’. Love the game for what it is, don’t try and make it a university study degree.

Obviously you and Charles Blair Macdonald disagree

 I say “Golf's Final Frontier is in The Mind” , no to make it look complicated but in explaining it is not, it’s us humans that make things complicated for ourselves as its appears another mountain we seem to want or need to conquer, it is not as there is no mountain it is all within our minds.

And NOTHING affects the MIND like the WIND

A more appropriate point of view would be to ask why designers place bunkers behind a Green – if the shot is wayward then that’s down to the golfer and he should suffer the consequences not be saved by cleverly positioned bunker by the designers. Trap the approach but let the rabbit run, this will be a better lesson for the golfer.

I started a thread about rear bunkers based on my interaction with the back bunker on # 16 at The Creek

I have seen it mentioned and believe it is worth far more discussion, why are modern designers trying to help the golfer, should the hazards not be to the front, minimising costs and leaving the wayward shot to fend for its self.- But that’s another topic, yet is as important as wind.

When is a hazard not a hazard, when it’s not there, so how can you expect  players to adjust.

I never defined the wind as a hazard, you did.
If you don't adjust to the wind, you're doomed to be its victim

No you did not I did as that is what it is. If yur game does not touch upon the hazard(s) then they play no part in that hole. You adjust to the wind if it is there just as you do if series of bunkers are in your target area otherwise it does not come into play. No wind no hazard is my point.

But, MY thread is specifically about THE WIND and its presence.

Feel free to initiate a thread about windless conitions

Many don’t, many can't, they wait until the weather improves just as happened with Norman and Watson over the last few Opens.
 
How does a competitor, in an Open, with set starting times, wait for the weather to improve before he decides to tee off ? 

You seem to have missed my point on this one completely – Norman and Watson came through the field when condition were bad, they adjusted to the hazard of the weather and played accordingly. The clearly did not letting Greg Norman take the lead which he held until after the weather turned for the better allowing the younger players the opportunity to return to their natural form and game. Ditto Watson. Reason, the older guys understood the game how to play the game, do not overcomplicate the game, just play it. The younger guys still rely more on power that the mind, yet had the weather not broken then we would have had two old guys winning The Open. It had sod all to do with start times off the Tee

I have no idea as to what you're talking about.
To claim that those golfers born, raised and trained in the wind, didn't know how to play the wind, and that only guys getting ready for Medicare knew how to handle the wind/weather is a croc.

Again why look for the complicated answer on Tee Times when you know they are set and players must Tee off accordingly or fear disqualification.

I didn't complicate it.
You wrote a convoluted response indicating that they waited for the weather to clear.
I responded by telling you that they didn't have the luxury of picking their tee off times.

The answer does not rest in a good golfing book but in open and free mind, to view before you the wonders of golf in the form of a natural course blending in all Natures gifts asking you to walk and perhaps flirt with her for a few miles. But to take her as your Mistress then it gets complicated, you make it complicated.


Not at all.

I initiated a thread about the WIND and you want to talk about rain and snow and that only olde guys getting ready for medicare know how to play in the wind.

[Michael Whitaker]

Pat - You said: "Seminole is a great course that gets exponentially better with wind. I think you could say the same thing about NGLA and Shinnecock"

By "better" do you mean more difficult? If not, it what way are they better?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat - You said: "Seminole is a great course that gets exponentially better with wind. I think you could say the same thing about NGLA and Shinnecock"

By "better" do you mean more difficult? If not, it what way are they better?

Certainly more fun, so in that sense, "better".

Difficulty seems to imply a challenge to which the golfer can't rise to meet.

Certainly the challenge is enhanced with the wind.
On some holes, they become easier, some holes more challenging.

Limited length seems to confine or limit difficulty.
At Seminole, into a North wind, the 4th hole is brutally difficult

Yet other holes into a North wind, aren't brutal, but, infinitely more challenging as the wind will accentuate any mistake in thinking and/or execution.

# 10 is a perfect example.

It's not a long hole, but, the configuration of the fairway, left side water hazard, green location, green bunkering and slope of the green, in combination with north or east winds all conspire to dash a golfer's hopes.  Sadly, with a ENE wind, my partner and I both triple bogied the hole in the last round of a competition less than two weeks ago.

Is the hole really difficult with a north or east wind, not really, but, it's certainly more challenging and quite adept at punishing the unwary, unthinking or unexecuting golfer.

So many holes are like that.

The 12th is another perfect example.  A short hole that can kill you if you mis-think, or mis-execute

Hole after hole isn't difficult, yet, they seem to ambush the unwary when the wind is present.

Whether it's the crowned nature of the greens, the feeding nature of the perimeters and greenside slopes or the concave nature of the bunkers, they all coalessce and conspire to penalize the errant shot

The 3rd hole is another great example.
A par 5 less than 500 yards where you'll see more 7's, 8's and 9's than you can imagine.
I've seen so many good rounds ruined on that hole, even when guys are hitting irons into the green.

It's really hard to describe how the wind influences play and scores at Seminole.
You really have to experience it

I think it's one of the very best member courses in the world because of the design and varied nature of the wind.
In addition, Hal Hicks, the Super and those in charge of the course, GET IT.
There''s a player's mentality that permeates everything about Seminole.
Playing there is one of the treats in golf, and in no small part, because of the WIND

[Michael Whitaker]

Pat - I completely understand what you are saying about the playing characteristics of holes changing with the wind. I'm a member at Royal Cinque Ports in Deal, England and we have numerous holes that are drastically changed when the wind reverses direction.

While I enjoy some of the holes more when played in a certain wind direction, I don't think I would classify them as "better" holes when the wind blows that way. It's just that they present a different challenge or opportunity. Just as many holes play easier in my preferred wind as play harder, so it's not the "challenge" that makes the difference for me. I enjoy having the opportunity of reaching a long hole downwind that I couldn't reach otherwise. It is also fun when a hard hole plays a bit tougher into a stiff wind, especially when I'm playing someone who is longer than me as it forces him to play my pitch and putt game on those holes.

Seminole seems to play very much like a links course. If you have not visited the links of England you need to do so... you would be in a state of bliss.

[David_Madison]

Pat,

As I wrote in my original post, generally I agree with your premise. But, there are courses and conditions where the presence of wind requires a set-up that may not highlight the architecture. In reply #21 you acknowledged that no course could be played with a 3+ club wind and greens stimping at 13.

Later I wrote: "But if the architectural style and course set-up (grass length, plushness, and inconsistent ground ball speed) best supports an aerial attack, then how does the wind accentuate the architecture?" Your response: "All of the items you list are non-architectural items.  They're maintainance items."

Greens stimping at 13 (or for that matter at 11 or 12 as well, seriously fast speeds) is a maintenance item, yet it lies at the very core of what makes an Oakmont, WFW, or Mountain Ridge special. Sure their architecture is wonderful without the speedy greens, but the super quick greens highlight the architecture. And even with a one or two club wind I can't see your being able to locate cups in as interesting a manner as you would with no wind. And then you are not highlighting the architecture but instead having to come off it a bit in order to allow the course to be playable. You can have one or the other, but not both.

I've never played Seminole, but I suspect that Ross designed it to accommodate the wind and maybe even to require it in order for the course to play to its full potential. But he knew that wind was pretty much a constant. Same with the Bandon Dunes courses. In spite of the fact that no architect back then envisioned currently available greens speeds, my guess is that AWT did not do that with with his NY/NJ courses, that he understood the conditions that would best highlight his architecture, and that they did not include a condition, wind, that was a comparatively less frequent event. Doesn't mean that shortening the courses from their full length and maybe slowing down the greens a tad, maybe adjusting some cupping, and then having wind won't show off the courses in a different manner, but instead just that they aren't optimized as the designer intended.

[A.G._Crockett]

Patrick,
I'm not sure why this is a hard topic for some to appreciate; maybe it would be helpful to separate the two parts of the question, with a slight rewording of the first part.

Perhaps we could rephrase the original question by substituting "identify" for "makes".  That wind helps identify better golfers seems almost inarguable to me, though nothing is inarguable on this site. 

Let's assume that all 4 majors are played on great examples of GCA every year.  I find The Masters and the British Open to be much, much more entertaining than the other two because the winner may well have to play in radically different wind and weather conditions each of the 4 days; in the case of the Open, the radically different conditions may occur within the same round!  Mentally and physically, this seems to be a much more thorough examination of one's game.

As to the second part of the question, certainly part of  "better architecture" must mean that avoiding or reaching certain parts of the course (bunkers and other hazards or proper positioning of shots or correct sections of greens, etc.) is more important than on lesser courses.  Looked at that way, wind makes it more difficult to avoid or find those places.  I think this "accentuates" better architecture.  That doesn't seem hard to understand.

For this part of your question, ANGC would be a poster child, especially in terms of controlling the golf ball enough to get to the correct portion of the green.  And I don't think it's all about length; every year we see the world's best standing on the 12th tee and agonizing over club selection because of relatively light but swirling breezes.

[William_G]

The more I play wind swept courses, the more I'm convinced that they bring out the weaknesses in a golfer's game, be they physical or mental or both. thus favoring and forcing one to be a better golfer..... or suffer the fates that good to great architecture presents at those sites.

I saw so many marginal shots penalized.
I sow so many poorly thought out shots penalized.
I saw the compounding effect of both.

What bothers me is when I see the insertion of  artificial barriers that impede the architecture's ability to function as intended, because someone has deemed the adverse consequence unfair or unintended

Is there  anything better than good/great architecture and the wind.

Does the wind force you to play  better or succumb to the architecture

Good/Great architecture, could be unplayable in the wind, eg. Augusta National, as its not a winswept course.

Seaside, links courses are designed for the wind, eg. Bandon.

The wind on any course with good or bad architecture, will penalize poor shots, marginal shots and compound both, regardless of architecture.

A well designed links course played in the wind, is hard to beat for a golfing experience, it is the ultimate test for any golfer, eg. Bandon.

Thanks

[Doug Siebert]

Michael, on some recent visits to Seminole I noticed the same thing.
Golfers who played the course regularly, in good winds, were so much better prepared than those who didn't have the same depth of experience.

There's no doubt in my mind that repeated play under windy conditions improves the golfer's game.
They just seem to get used to it and incorporate it into their normal play

 
Patrick,

The key thing here is having played Seminole regularly, in good winds.  That's the thing with playing in strong wind, local knowledge becomes much more valuable.  A fairly subtle slope on the green that normally doesn't enter too much into one's thoughts can become extremely important when the wind is blowing down that slope such that the ball won't stop on that slope due to the wind's push.  Its also useful to know those certain "you don't want to go there" spots such as individual bunkers, odd lies, various bad angles, short sides, etc. as they demand extra attention in windy (especially gusty) conditions that may make a better bet to play away from the hole - as your even par friend at Seminole discovered to his distress!

[Patrick_Mucci]

The more I play wind swept courses, the more I'm convinced that they bring out the weaknesses in a golfer's game, be they physical or mental or both. thus favoring and forcing one to be a better golfer..... or suffer the fates that good to great architecture presents at those sites.

I saw so many marginal shots penalized.
I sow so many poorly thought out shots penalized.
I saw the compounding effect of both.

What bothers me is when I see the insertion of  artificial barriers that impede the architecture's ability to function as intended, because someone has deemed the adverse consequence unfair or unintended

Is there  anything better than good/great architecture and the wind.

Does the wind force you to play  better or succumb to the architecture

Good/Great architecture, could be unplayable in the wind, eg. Augusta National, as its not a winswept course.

You're kidding !
ANGC with its wide fairways and benign rough would be a GREAT course in the wind.

Seaside, links courses are designed for the wind, eg. Bandon.

The wind on any course with good or bad architecture, will penalize poor shots, marginal shots and compound both, regardless of architecture.

A well designed links course played in the wind, is hard to beat for a golfing experience, it is the ultimate test for any golfer, eg. Bandon.

Thanks

[Patrick_Mucci]

Michael, on some recent visits to Seminole I noticed the same thing.
Golfers who played the course regularly, in good winds, were so much better prepared than those who didn't have the same depth of experience.

There's no doubt in my mind that repeated play under windy conditions improves the golfer's game.
They just seem to get used to it and incorporate it into their normal play

 
Patrick,

The key thing here is having played Seminole regularly, in good winds.  That's the thing with playing in strong wind, local knowledge becomes much more valuable.  A fairly subtle slope on the green that normally doesn't enter too much into one's thoughts can become extremely important when the wind is blowing down that slope such that the ball won't stop on that slope due to the wind's push.  Its also useful to know those certain "you don't want to go there" spots such as individual bunkers, odd lies, various bad angles, short sides, etc. as they demand extra attention in windy (especially gusty) conditions that may make a better bet to play away from the hole - as your even par friend at Seminole discovered to his distress!

Doug,

Interesting observation.  It's almost identical to an email I recently  sent to a Seminole member

I think playing in the wind "hardens" your game and I think local knowledge takes on a far greater signficance.

Above all, I think the wind accentuates the subtleties of the architecture.

Things that golfers never notice become visible to them in good winds.

I think daily play on a windy course is a great teacher, if the golfer is a good student.

[Brad Isaacs]

I think wind and great architecture demand shot making. Combine them and the affect is accentuated. Shotmaking makes you a better golfer!

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