[Patrick_Mucci]

The more I play wind swept courses, the more I'm convinced that they bring out the weaknesses in a golfer's game, be they physical or mental or both. thus favoring and forcing one to be a better golfer..... or suffer the fates that good to great architecture presents at those sites.

It seems to me that the WIND can really punish margijnal or poorly thought out shots especially when combined with architecture that's specifically oriented toward a windy site.

Seminole is such a course.

I saw so many marginal shots penalized.
I sow so many poorly thought out shots penalized.
I saw the compounding effect of both.

One incident stands our in particular.  On the 5th hole a fellow hit his approach just short of the green.  The pin was cut on the right center.  He was even par at the time.  He pitched up, but, getting greedy, bold or confident that prior results would yield favorable future  results, pitched slighty to the righ of the hole.  It was a great pitch in terms of pace.  But, combined with and East wind, and the sloping contour, the ball turned toward the flanking right bunker, and down, into it he went.  Next he left two bunker shots in the bunker, then bladed his next over the green.

He went from an EASY bogey to an X in a matter of a minute or two.

Had he pitched to the left of the hole, leaving him a 5 or 10 footer, he would have left # 5 even or 1 over at worst.
Instead, his round was over in terms of posting a good score. And, the thought that 13 more holes awaited him, did not find him leaving the 5th green brimming with confidence

What did him in ?

Hole location, a marginal first shot, poor thinking, the wind, slope.
Sometimes I thimk great architecture is like an eel trap, easy to get into, but, impossible to recover from

Without the wind, I couldn't see him making more than a bogey, but, on each shot, the wind had a dramatic effect on his swing, the ball in flight and roll, and more importantly, on his thinking.  And, the architecture, so seemingly simple in presentation, was insidiously awaiting this golfer and the errant play of his game

What I like about Seminoole and NGLA, Westhampton and other wind swept courses is how the marginal shot, the errant shot is directed to a more dire fate by the wind

What bothers me is when I see the insertion of  artificial barriers that impede the architecture's ability to function as intended, because someone has deemed the adverse consequence unfair or unintended

Is there  anything better than good/great architecture and the wind.

Does the wind force you to play  better or succumb to the architecture

[Steve Lang]

  Looks like the wind swept away any interest in your thread.. 

I have an interest as I've been playing with/working on modeling wind currents over golf courses using CFD modeling.

When I came to SE TX from NW Ohio I wondered about the legendary TX golfers growing up playing in the wind, honing an appreciation of what ball flights work and which don't and having the guts to trust that knowledge. 

IMHO:

Is there  anything better than good/great architecture and the wind?

     NOTHING BETTER TO FORCE THE MENTAL ACUITY TO TASK.  though it doesn't really matter what the venue, great, good or bad

Does the wind force you to play  better or succumb to the architecture?
 
     PLAY BETTER IF YOU'RE THE TYPE ALWAYS TRYING TO IMPROVE/CHALLENGE YOURSELF OR MAYBE SIMPLY A CLOSET MASOCHIST.. succumb if you're just playing without spirit..
 

[mike_beene]

I think the wind is one reason we see a lot of great ball strikers come from Texas and Australia.I realize this is a blanket statement and that other factors are present. I find it interesting Hogan picked Seminole as a practice place.

[David_Madison]

Pat - Generally you are probably right, but aren't there a number of courses with wonderful architecture where the presence of serious wind would detract from the test presented or take them over the top? Examples could include Oakmont, Pinehurst #2 (once it's right again), Pine Valley (although I've never seen it so I really don't know) and likely others. Here's a counter question to yours - - are courses that truly test quality players without needing to resort to wind actually better architecturally than those that need the outside influence of the wind to come alive?

[Bob_Huntley]

Pat,

There was a general consensus in and around the late twenties and well into the late forties, that wind and bad weather prevalent in the British Isles was the reason that British golfers seemed inferior to their American counterparts. However, it would seem as though the the Hogans and Demerets proved  the wind component could be one of the reasons that made them better players. Again, this was also put to bed when an Englishman, Henry Cotton, won the Open in the vilest of conditions.

I do think that control of the ball in windy conditions is the hallmark of the superior player and Tom Watson and Christy O'Connor proved that time and time again. Tom Kite's final round in the 1992 US Open at Pebble Beach was one for the ages, on a course that allowed room for  the less that perfect shot.


Bob

[mike_beene]

I also think of Trevino as someone learned in the wind. He is to some as good a ball striker as there ever was.Watson hit it higher than most multiple open champions.Wish I could have said 6 time champion.

[mike_beene]

one more thought:does wind encourage the architect to make a wider course.That is usually a positive to me anyway.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

yes

[Melvyn Morrow]

No

Its just part of the course, another trap or hazard. Many an old designers used their knowledge of the sites and the wind direction within their designs. One hole was then reverses against the next. Yet wind does not always venture forth to challenge the player. TOC can be a real charmer for days with no wind - so No is my answer.

Melvyn

[Richard Phinney]

On a links course, a shifting, blustery wind turns the course upside down.  On a daily basis. And distrurbs architectural assumptions. its why even simple links holes can and must be played in so many interesting, different ways.  Many traditional links courses simply can't be tricked up too much or they are miserable to play in very windy conditions, and, conversely, that is why they are not nearly so much fun to play in still conditions.

[Adam Clayman]

Pat, One thing is certain about wind. Playing in it, identifies the sportsman. The majority don't like playing in the wind, and even those who do, have a number where the wind speed has it's limits.

Personally, If there was one new thing I learned the most this year, it was how when playing downwind, there's no stopping the ball. Requiring even more thoughtfulness prior to playing one's shot. Even on short chips, that might have a slight cross wind bend to them, once it influenced the ball, it over exaggerated the distance the ball would go. Which is what sounds like what happened to this poor fellow you gave the example about.

[Mike Hendren]

No

Its just part of the course, another trap or hazard. Many an old designers used their knowledge of the sites and the wind direction within their designs. One hole was then reverses against the next. Yet wind does not always venture forth to challenge the player. TOC can be a real charmer for days with no wind - so No is my answer.

Melvyn

I agree with Melvyn 100%

[Jeff Taylor]

Maybe golfers don't think about wind on short shots. For me the question becomes one of a pre-shot routine that accounts for all factors. Looks like you playing opponent left one element out of his equation.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Jeff

Golf becomes "one of a pre-shot routine that accounts for all factors", Hell Jeff why do you play golf

As a golfer wind should be very much part of any shot even putting. Not thinking, is that a result of using distance aids?    

Melvyn

[Jeff Taylor]

Melvyn,
Not sure of the wording of your first statement.
I do cover what I believe to be all the relevant factors for a successful shot. I even do it in a timely fashion (same number of seconds per shot).
I believe that not thinking can be a function of poor methods, poor discilpline, or a bit of both. What is the point of being out there if you are not going to give your best. Otherwise, the course is a park on Sundays.

[Jason Topp]

It seems logical to me that wind would develop better golfers but I have no basis for knowing whether or not windy golf courses produce better players.

It certainly exposes weakness in all aspects of the game.  I think the impact on the short game (particularly putting) may be more pronounced than the impact on full shots. 

[Chris Johnston]

Depends on how much wind.

[A.G._Crockett]

Patrick,
I think in most cases the answer is yes, assuming the winds are moderate.  There is a point at which wind becomes such a factor the neither the golfer nor the architecture can overcome it.  For the sake of discussion, I'll ballpark it at 15 mph or so and gusty.  Much beyond that and it's a crapshoot.

I know this; if I play in a tournament in windy conditions, I am far, far more tired at the end of the round.  The level of concentration involved is exhausting.

[John Mayhugh]

Wouldn't wind also accentuate bad architecture?

[Melvyn Morrow]

More wind on here than on a Links course, even Askernisk 

Melvyn

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wouldn't wind also accentuate bad architecture?


I think you'd have to Define the particulars of "bad" architecture for us before that question can be answered.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat - Generally you are probably right, but aren't there a number of courses with wonderful architecture where the presence of serious wind would detract from the test presented or take them over the top?

Once you qualify the wind as being "serious" wind, you might be bringing the issue to another level.
What's a serious wind ?  2 clubs ?  3 ? 4 ?
I'd consider a 1 to 2 club wind as a good wind, 3 still manageable but very difficult and 4 and above..... harsh to unplayable in competion.

Examples could include Oakmont, Pinehurst #2 (once it's right again), Pine Valley (although I've never seen it so I really don't know) and likely others.

The fairways at PV have width that could accomodate good winds.  Pinehurst # 2 used to have fairway width that could accomodate good winds.  The former fairways at Oakmont had ample width as well., So, tee to green, yes, they could integrate with the wind.
Green speed and slope are another matter.
You can't have slope/contour with greens at 13 and 3 club winds, no matter what course you're referencing.
That's what initially surprised me about the courses at Bandon, OR.  Their green speeds were moderate at best.  When I inquired about the green speeds I was told that they were necesitated by the velocity of the winds that sweep the site

Here's a counter question to yours - - are courses that truly test quality players without needing to resort to wind actually better architecturally than those that need the outside influence of the wind to come alive?

The answer tends to be strictly a function of length, not wind.

Take WFW and subject it to 2 to 3 to 4 club winds and see what happens to the scores.

[Patrick_Mucci]

On a links course, a shifting, blustery wind turns the course upside down.  On a daily basis. And distrurbs architectural assumptions. its why even simple links holes can and must be played in so many interesting, different ways.  Many traditional links courses simply can't be tricked up too much or they are miserable to play in very windy conditions, and, conversely, that is why they are not nearly so much fun to play in still conditions.

Richard,

Why would they need to be tricked up ?

If the course is properly designed, shouldn't the overall tactical challenge remain the same irrespective of the direction of the wind ?

Such is the case at Seminole.

While the individual holes play dramatically different, in differing winds, the overall challenge of the course remains somewhat balanced, equivalent, allowing the golfer tremendous variety within each hole, but, at the end of the day, the challenge of all 18 holes will have been consistent with the challenge presented by winds from differing directions

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,
I think in most cases the answer is yes, assuming the winds are moderate.  There is a point at which wind becomes such a factor the neither the golfer nor the architecture can overcome it.  For the sake of discussion, I'll ballpark it at 15 mph or so and gusty.  Much beyond that and it's a crapshoot.

I know this; if I play in a tournament in windy conditions, I am far, far more tired at the end of the round.  The level of concentration involved is exhausting.

I'd agree.
I think the wind puts a constant pressure on your game, from tee shot to one foot putts.
My scale is 1 to 2 club length winds are challenging but fine, 3 starts getting very difficult, 4 and above are pretty much unmanageable in competition.

[Gary Slatter]

I think the wind can make better golfers play better than the rest.   Match Play in my opinion, is designed for windy conditions.  Pat's friend at Seminole would just lose the hole (and not his round) after chipping into the bunker etc.

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