[Tom MacWood]

While scanning the 1899 Harpers Golf Guide looking for American born golf architects I was struck by a few names that came up often, Tom Bendelow, Alex Findlay and Arthur Fenn, but the most impressive person was Herbert James Tweedie. Tweedie, who was from Hoylake, had 17 designs in seven states under his belt:

Aurora, IL
Belmont, IL
Midlothian, Blue Island, IL
Bryn Mawr, IL
Westwart Ho!, Galewood, IL
Skokie, Glencoe, IL
Jacksonville, IL
LaGrange, IL
Quincy, IL
Ouilmette, Wilmette, IL
Winona, Winona Lake, IL
Marshalltown, IA
Louisville, KY
Lake Harbor, MI
CC of Atlantic City, NJ
Hotel Victory, Put-in-Bay, OH
Fountain Springs, Waukesha, WI

Midlothian was the longest course in the country at the time at 6500+ yards.

[Greg Ohlendorf]

Tom,

Tweedie also built Homewood CC (now Flossmoor CC) which opened in 1900. See me IMO piece on Flossmoor for more on his story. He unfortunately died at a fairly early age or I believe we all may of heard more about him.

Greg

[Jud_T]

I believe he also did the original layout at Exmoor, some of which still remains...

[JC Jones]

Where is Lake Harbor, MI?

[Jeff_Brauer]

According to CW, Tweedie and his brother came in 1887 and mangaged the Spaulding sporting good store in Chicago, and managed to become good friends with CBM and join Chicago Golf Club.  That may suggest that many of his early layouts were done for Spaulding?

[Bradley Anderson]

I thought he also did Rockford CC.

[J_ Crisham]

I thought he also did Rockford CC.

This is true- around 1899 if I'm not mistaken.    Jack

[Kevin Cahoon]

Park Ridge can be added to the list as Tweedie designed the original 9 holes.

[Tom MacWood]

Actually Tweedie was born in Bombay, India, not Hoylake. His parents were Scots from East Lothian. He was only 42 when he died. He is credited with being the first to play golf in Chicago and the first to lay out golf course in that city. He came to Chicago in 1887. Onwentsia is another course he was involved in laying out.

Lake Harbor is near Muskegon.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Given he managed to befriend CBM and join Chicago Golf, I may be off base speculating his designs were for Spaulding.  CBM may have given him many of his connections to design new clubs around Chicago and the Midwest.

[Tom MacWood]

IMO saying the courses were designed by Spalding is a little strange. Tweedie designed the golf courses. It wasn't a case like Bendelow who was actually hired by Spalding to design golf courses (Bendelow designed those courses too). Tweedie ran the stores before he designed golf courses. I think it is reasonable to say Tweedie was trying to spread the game by creating golf courses and new markets for the store he managed. If you dig further I believe you will find Tweedie was as well respected and well connected around Chicago as CBM.

[TEPaul]

"Midlothian was the longest course in the country at the time at 6500+ yards."


Midlothian may've been the longest course in the country in 1899-1900 but it seems from the Golf Guide or Harpers it was listed at that time at 6,327, not 6,500+

Maybe Chicago golf was into real distance and difficulty as it does appear Flynn's much later Chicago course, Mill Road Farm, was the longest in the country in the 1920s. I think it closely approached 7,000 yards. Some such as Bob Jones referred to it as the hardest course in the country.

[TEPaul]

It is also interesting to me that in 1899 Harpers or the Golf Guide seemed to mention who laid out a number of courses (I suppose if they had that information or a club gave it to them) but in 1901 there does not appear to be any mention of that information in their course listings.

I wonder why they changed and omitted that information in the later guides. I wonder if it had something to do with the impending amateur status rules as they too are listed in the 1900 or 1901 guides?

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

It seems that most of Tweedie's dozen course designs occurred before 1898, and the numbers tailed off significantly in the early 1900's.  Bendelow was hired by Spaulding in 1896. It would be interesting to know the dynamics of those relationships with Spaulding.  Perhaps Tweedie's side jobs demonstrated to Spaulding the possibilities of golf course design?

Tweedie stayed at Spaulding until his death and then his son took over, so whatever he did, he obviously maintained a great relationship with the company.

[TEPaul]

In the Harpers Golf Guides of 1899 and 1900 it is listed that Onwentsia was laid out in 1896 and 1897 under the supervision of ex-champion H.J. Whigam. There is no mention of H.J. Tweedie's participation.

I wonder why since both Golf Guides are quite close in time to the event as they are to most courses listed in those Guides.

The Golf Guides also list Atlantic City as being laid out by both Tweedie and John Reid (another peripatetic and productive architect of that time). I feel a certain connection to John Reid who did a considerable amount of work around here for many years including as the pro/greenkeeper of my club, Gulph Mills GC after the war. Unfortunately he left in anger after our greens failed and we brought in Flynn to fix them to the tune of $650 per green. It seemed the problem was Reid had overseeded them with wheat!! 

[Jeff_Brauer]

TePaul,

CW lists Tweedie as co-designing the second nine at Onwentsia in 1899 with Whigham and Foulis, for what its worth.  If he had befriended CBM and Co. perhaps he just got himself added to the team, or was added because of friendship and some experience.  Just wondering as much as anything.

[TEPaul]

"TePaul,
CW lists Tweedie as co-designing the second nine at Onwentsia in 1899 with Whigham and Foulis, for what its worth."


Mr. Jeffrey, Sir:

Yes, that's all true.

I'm just wondering why the 1899 and 1900 Golf Guides don't mention him with Onwentsia since they most certainly mention him with a number of other courses he was involved in laying out. I also note that those Golf Guides are a whole lot more contemporaneous than C&W were.

I once had a wonderful approximately hour-long conversation with Mr. Cornish about his tome with Whitten. The subject came up of the method of their research. He said mostly they found it with the particularly clubs and that obviously if the clubs got something wrong their book would reflect it.

That is why I feel the very best research material is the most contemporaneous material and obviously the most direct research material as well such as club and committee meeting minutes of the time of any event. It's contemporaneous and it's direct and not something after the fact or some reporters indirect interpretation of it.

On the other hand, it is impressive to me how often those two Golf Guides were able to actually list who did lay out some of those early 1890s courses, and I note again that those listing were all pretty contemporaneous as in almost no case was a course over about 5-6 years old in America when those 1899 and 1900 listing mentioning course architects came out.

[Tom MacWood]

Westward Ho! at 6500+ was the longest course in America, not Midlothian.

[TEPaul]

Jeffrey:

As for Tweedie and Macdonald, how well they knew one another and from where, I would have to say Chicago in the 1890s was certainly their closest association as we must remember that golf in America at that time was extremely small and just beginning.

But we should certainly also note where Tweedie came from----eg Liverpool and the fact is that is where Macdonald played the vast majority of his golf when he was abroad on business in the 1880s. He actualy belonged to Royal Liverpool.

[TEPaul]

"Midlothian was the longest course in the country at the time at 6500+ yards."


"Westward Ho! at 6,500+ yards was the longest course in America, not Midlothian."



Tom MacWood:

I see. Then why did you say Onwentsia was? Are you trying to imply they are the same golf course?  One really does need to keep a very watchful eye on a good deal of what you say and have said on this website and constantly question you on it and its accuracy and factualness otherwise the inaccuracy factor might fly right off the proverbial charts! You must realize that had I failed to correct you some over-arching self proclaimed "expert researchers/historiains" from the likes of California and Ohio a hundred years ago may latch onto your first post on here on Google and maintain it is "verifiable proof" that Onwentsia was the longest course in America in 1899 at 6,500+ yards! I hereby would like to ask you to go to your first post and correct your mistake about Onwentsia. Hopefully we might get better results from you this time than we did with the request to you to amend on this website what you said about the ethics of Merion's primary historian! 

[Tom MacWood]

I didn't say Onwentsia I said Midlothian, it was human error. Westward Ho! was listed right below Midlothian in the Golf Guide. No, Midlothian, Westward Ho! and Onwentsia are definitely distinct and separate golf courses.

[TEPaul]

"I didn't say Onwentsia I said Midlothian,"



Yes, that's true. Do you see how confusing some of the constant mistakes you make on here make things? Human error indeed! No truer words could be said. I guess the key with you then would be to try to limit in the future the frequency of the so named occurence and cause! Would you then be willing, at this point, to reconsider some of the things you have said and seem to constantly defend on here regarding the architectural histories of other clubs and courses----eg such examples as HH Barker and Merion East and Willie Campbell and Myopia, not to even mention North Shore and Robert White or Shawnee and CC Worthington! We can get into your claim that A.W. Tillinghast sold out his architectural principles in the 1930s or that the Golden Age of Golf Architecture should be relabeled "Arts and Crafts Golf" some other time. 

[TEPaul]

"No, Midlothian, Westward Ho! and Onwentsia are definitely distinct and separate golf courses."

I believe the operative word in 2010 should probably be were; not are. Would you agree?


Nevertheless, it is true, in my opinion, as apparently it is in yours, that H.J Tweedie was quite the productive architect in the last decade of the 19th century in America and on, as were a pretty fair number of others like him back then. Unfortunately, you're probably still under the mistaken impression and misconception that for some reason I'm trying to minimize them and/or somehow disrespect them and what they did back then. Nothing of the kind. If you'd like to see both how and why I feel I have not done that, quite the opposite in fact, then IM or email me your mailing address and I will send you a copy of the Walker Cup progam of 2009 at Merion in which I wrote an article that very much touches on and deals with this very subject.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TePaul (and TMac),

When I typed my posts, I was having trouble equating Tweedie, a perhaps lowly Sporting Goods Store manager with CBM, who I would assume would normally associate with more upper crust types.  Was store manager that good a job in those days?  Or did CBM trundle downtown to buy his golf balls and clubs, chat him up, find he was Scottish, take a liking to him, and put him in his inner circle?

I don't know, of course, and that is the kind of early interrelationships that I find fascinating.

[Sean_Tully]

I have read that  very early on HJT and CBM went out to Washington Park and played golf over a very rudimentary golf course there that would later be laid out by CBM. HJT was in the right social circles at the time that when they laid out the Chicago Golf Club he was made the secretary very much near the formation of the club. When you consider the names of the other founders it speaks to that. He might have been included in all of this because at the time he had access to the clubs and balls?     When he died at the age of 42 he had eight children and left his wife to take care of them. Considering that only one of them was hers, HJT did more than just laying out golf courses! No idea how he died or how all of 8 children were associated to him, but the local golfers got together and helped to raise some funds for the wife and kids.

Tully

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()