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TEPaul

Re: HJ Tweedie
« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2010, 10:28:56 AM »
Mr. Jeffrey:

With that kind of thing I would say, as I always have, is that probably the best source of information on that would be C.B. Macdonald himself and what he said and wrote. Perhaps the usual and best source for that is his own book. In it he certainly does mention a number of men over a very extended period of times and on two continents who he apparently considered to be his inner-circle in golf and architecture, as friends and club members, mentors, associates etc, etc.

I do not recall that he ever mentioned Tweedie in that vein but I'd be glad to check his book and look, although unfortunately it has no table of contents in it.

I don't believe it is of much debate or of much question by most anyone who knows much about Macdonald, and certainly including George Bahto, that in some or many ways and in some and many areas Macdonald was quite the elitist, snob, exclusionist etc. Macdonald himself, and in his book, does not even deny this; matter of fact he does a pretty decent job of explaining (in his opinion and philosophy) why things should be that way!   ;)

Above all else, Charles Blair Macdonald was and could be a massively complex and complicated man and that is precisely why he has always fascinated me so. Some on here seem to think when I say that I am somehow trying to crtiicize him.

NOTHING could be further from the truth! It is precisely WHY I think he was one of the most fascinating and interesting men golf architecture and golf has ever had or has ever known!
« Last Edit: November 22, 2010, 10:32:19 AM by TEPaul »

Mike Cirba

Re: HJ Tweedie
« Reply #26 on: November 22, 2010, 10:31:29 AM »
HJ Tweedie is one terrific name for a Scottish emigre and I appreciate learning more about him, but what I'll never understand is why guys like him and the Dunns, and a number of others did work that was so far removed philosophically, aesthetically, and functionally from the courses found in their homelands.

I'm sitting here looking at a 1898 drawing of Tweedie's Atlantic City Country Club, which is a nine hole course of 2149 yards.  

To say it is pedestrian would be an understatement.   There are cross bunkers on every hole, and it looks to be the poster-child for the type of brain-dead, stilted, formulaic steeple-chase architecture that was prevalent in this country in those early years.  

Were his courses around Chicago of similar style, or is there something about his architecture that is noteworthy for any reason than historical interest and early quantity?

TEPaul

Re: HJ Tweedie
« Reply #27 on: November 22, 2010, 10:45:21 AM »
Michael:

Why a man like Tweedie from abroad did the kinds of courses he did in America in particularly the 1890s is not really that complicated. The reasons why may be somewhat numerous but they are not all that hard to understand.

I'd be glad to list what those reasons very likely were. The point of it all is there was virtually nothing over here in that last decade of the 19th century that was much different, and that includes Macdonald's Chicago Golf Club course (just look at it and its prevalent cop or steeplechase type hazards).

The point here, at least to me, is if men like Tweedie had been given the time and the opportunity and yes the money as well to do what some of those (generally those few good amateur/sportsmen architects of the late 1890s and early 1900s) had, would they have been able to do as well or even better or worse?

To me that is the question and ultimately it all boils down to the question of how they should really be considered in the realm of their architectural talent.

My feeling has always been that they simply did not have the time, the opportunity and the money those other few had, but if they had had it back then there is no particularly reason I'm aware of to assume they could not have done the same as those others.

Don't forget, those types of architects back then were not exactly doing everything they wanted to do as those select others were; they were basically only doing what they were asked to do, and paid to do, and given the time to do, all of which wasn't much back then. And it showed back then no matter who you were or where you came from.

This is not exactly rocket science and none of us should try to make it rocket science! The additional point is that inland architecture, and probably everywhere that it was in the latter half of the 19th century just had not gotten to the point of some of the more naturally imbued architectural sophistication of some of the linksland holes and courses simply because those inland sites just did not have anywhere near the natural assets and features those linksland courses had and even mostly naturally, and at that point noone had taken the time and the effort and money to try to make them so! That would just begin to change around the turn of the century even though there are a very special and select few inland courses that preceded that on both continents. But the fact is they took a lot more time and money than anything that had come before them, and THAT is what we FIRST need to understand and appreciate!

This is why I've become so fascinated with Myopia. It is not because it was the absolute best in the first decade of the 20th century or the teens or 1920s, it was because it was the FIRST really good architecture over here, in my opinion of course, because it was begun over here in 1896 and 1898 basically the way it is now. Some said Chicago Golf Club was as well back then but the problem is we can never directly know that anymore because unlike Myopia it is quite different today than it was back in the late 1890s.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2010, 11:20:10 AM by TEPaul »

Mike Cirba

Re: HJ Tweedie
« Reply #28 on: November 22, 2010, 10:54:33 AM »
Tom,

But why, oh why the fairway wide crossing bunkers as the standard hazard of choice?   Surely it cost no more to build a flanking or diagonal hazard than a geometric carry one?

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HJ Tweedie
« Reply #29 on: November 22, 2010, 11:02:48 AM »
Mike,

Perhaps the answer is simple - he had no talent, just connections that got him the jobs, not unlike today's pros......
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HJ Tweedie
« Reply #30 on: November 22, 2010, 11:21:33 AM »
TePaul (and TMac),

When I typed my posts, I was having trouble equating Tweedie, a perhaps lowly Sporting Goods Store manager with CBM, who I would assume would normally associate with more upper crust types.  Was store manager that good a job in those days?  Or did CBM trundle downtown to buy his golf balls and clubs, chat him up, find he was Scottish, take a liking to him, and put him in his inner circle?

I don't know, of course, and that is the kind of early interrelationships that I find fascinating.


I'm not certain Tweedie was involved with Spalding or any sporting goods store. I've not been able to find any mention of a connection. His son Douglas on the other hand was certainly involved with Spalding. In 1896 Tweedie managed the club and grounds at Onwentsia. He was the club secreatary. He was paid $1200 per year. And I don't believe he & CBM were all that close, they were golfing rivals. In fact in 1896 Tweeide was to play for Onwentsia in a match against Wheaton and Wheaton objected, claiming he was a professional. Tweedie withdrew.

It was reported Tweedie was the secretary at Hoylake before relocating in the States. In 1890 interivew Tweedie said golf was being played on the Wanderers' cricket ground at Jackson Park. He thought that there were good propsects for a legitimate course being built outside the city on sandy ground.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2010, 11:36:59 AM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re: HJ Tweedie
« Reply #31 on: November 22, 2010, 11:27:09 AM »
"Tom,
But why, oh why the fairway wide crossing bunkers as the standard hazard of choice?   Surely it cost no more to build a flanking or diagonal hazard than a geometric carry one?"


Michael:

We have been through that before on here and elsewhere and many, many times. I believe what was discussed by some in that vein is the actual and accurate history and evolution of it and the reasons for it. Even though some on here deny it, in my opinion there was a very good reason WHY much of that inland golf course architecture on both continents was not infrequently referred to with terms like "steeplechase" architecture and not just today but very much back then. There was a good reason it was referred to that way and at the time because that is precisely what it looked like and what it was. Let's not forget that the world of the horse and the recreational world of the horse was very much part of life at that time. THAT too would begin to dramatically change right around the same time inland golf architecture began to change as well. With the beginnings of more sophisticated golf course architecture in this country came at the very same time the automobile, and gradually the world of the horse and its local transporation and even prevalent recreation began to fade into the evolution of time and tide.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2010, 11:30:36 AM by TEPaul »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HJ Tweedie
« Reply #32 on: November 22, 2010, 11:34:47 AM »
TMac,

That is interesting. If so, then its one of those instances where CW gets it wrong for some reason.  I appreciate the info.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HJ Tweedie
« Reply #33 on: November 22, 2010, 11:41:10 AM »
The Chicago Historical Society has collected a lot of materials on Tweedie. They would be a good source to fill in the picture.

Bob

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HJ Tweedie
« Reply #34 on: November 22, 2010, 11:43:25 AM »
Mike,

Perhaps the answer is simple - he had no talent, just connections that got him the jobs, not unlike today's pros......

Be careful whose long-lost relative's rep you besmirch lest a poster from this side of pond also goes batty.... 8)
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

TEPaul

Re: HJ Tweedie
« Reply #35 on: November 22, 2010, 11:44:34 AM »
To even begin to understand whatever the relationship was between Tweedie and men like Macdonald and perhaps Whigam and other actual members of Chicago clubs of the 1890s we would probably have to get directly and deeply into the realities of the social structures of those worlds in those places back then.

I have found, particularly on here, that even if it is the truthful and factually accurate history of that time that some have a hard time dealing with it and its realities or even being able to accurately imagine them. Personally, I would say that is because some of us are more imbued with the social and political sentiments and realities of our own time and consequently less able to strip them from our very consciousness to objectively view, understand and really appreciate the social realities of an earlier time, such as the one under discussion here. A term, attitude and modern philosophy such as this "politically correct" one enters into the equation and the view of things back then and it definitely does not help in historical understanding and appreciation of that earlier time.

Matter of fact, in my opinion, too much of today's presentation of various historical times and places and people, particularly those parts that we today view as socially or politically unattractive, has had far too much of those actual and historically factual realities stripped right out of it.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2010, 12:14:00 PM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HJ Tweedie
« Reply #36 on: November 22, 2010, 01:41:11 PM »
To even begin to understand whatever the relationship was between Tweedie and men like Macdonald and perhaps Whigam and other actual members of Chicago clubs of the 1890s we would probably have to get directly and deeply into the realities of the social structures of those worlds in those places back then.

I have found, particularly on here, that even if it is the truthful and factually accurate history of that time that some have a hard time dealing with it and its realities or even being able to accurately imagine them. Personally, I would say that is because some of us are more imbued with the social and political sentiments and realities of our own time and consequently less able to strip them from our very consciousness to objectively view, understand and really appreciate the social realities of an earlier time, such as the one under discussion here. A term, attitude and modern philosophy such as this "politically correct" one enters into the equation and the view of things back then and it definitely does not help in historical understanding and appreciation of that earlier time.

Matter of fact, in my opinion, too much of today's presentation of various historical times and places and people, particularly those parts that we today view as socially or politically unattractive, has had far too much of those actual and historically factual realities stripped right out of it.

TEP
You seem to be implying that social status was involved in the controversy involving Tweedie's amateur standing, and also perhaps his relationship (or lack of) with CBM. Your ability to unravel these things with little or no information is amazing, especially in this case since you've shown little interest in Chicago golf or its history over the years.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HJ Tweedie
« Reply #37 on: November 22, 2010, 05:14:50 PM »
Here is a link to a history of the Tweedie family. The part dealing with HJ starts on page 134. It says he managed the Spalding store and also worked for MacGregor out of Dayton. On the 1900 Census he listed his profession as 'golf supplies.' I would have thought the Spalding store would've carried more than just golf equipment.

http://www.tweedie.com/TweedieBook.pdf

TEPaul

Re: HJ Tweedie
« Reply #38 on: November 22, 2010, 05:43:02 PM »
"TEP
You seem to be implying that social status was involved in the controversy involving Tweedie's amateur standing, and also perhaps his relationship (or lack of) with CBM."


Tom MacWood:

I have no idea at all what Tweedie's relationship (or lack of) was with CBM. Do you?

I am also not aware of any controversy involving Tweedie's amateur status. What was that about and when was it? Was he a good player? All I've ever heard in that vein was the brief mention in C&W that the Tweedie brothers were avid golfers; whatever that means.

But if he had some problem or controversy with his amateur status with the USGA he must have been competitor who did play in or tried to play in their events. You may not be aware of it but the USGA did not exactly concern itself with the amateur status of duffers. To have the USGA question one's amateur status due to receiving remuneration back then from golf or frankly any professional sport one had to have the skill and reputation to trade on for remuneration.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HJ Tweedie
« Reply #39 on: November 22, 2010, 06:47:07 PM »
To even begin to understand whatever the relationship was between Tweedie and men like Macdonald and perhaps Whigam and other actual members of Chicago clubs of the 1890s we would probably have to get directly and deeply into the realities of the social structures of those worlds in those places back then.

I have found, particularly on here, that even if it is the truthful and factually accurate history of that time that some have a hard time dealing with it and its realities or even being able to accurately imagine them. Personally, I would say that is because some of us are more imbued with the social and political sentiments and realities of our own time and consequently less able to strip them from our very consciousness to objectively view, understand and really appreciate the social realities of an earlier time, such as the one under discussion here. A term, attitude and modern philosophy such as this "politically correct" one enters into the equation and the view of things back then and it definitely does not help in historical understanding and appreciation of that earlier time.

Matter of fact, in my opinion, too much of today's presentation of various historical times and places and people, particularly those parts that we today view as socially or politically unattractive, has had far too much of those actual and historically factual realities stripped right out of it.

TEP
What does social status or social structures have to do with Tweedie?

TEPaul

Re: HJ Tweedie
« Reply #40 on: November 22, 2010, 06:56:44 PM »
Tom MacWood:


Jeeesus Keerist, that is quite the family tree. I think I just learned more about the Tweedie family and over about 600-700 years than I ever wanted to know or would ever want to know about either side of my own family.

Herbert James Tweedie, the subject of this thread, was what was obviously considered in England and in America in the early days of golf by the likes of Macdonald and Whigam et al (1870s, 1880s, 1890s etc) to be a "gentleman!"

He may not have had much money of his own when he began his career in golf and golf architecture and with Spalding in America but in that world back then it didn't really matter in the vein of being a member of the clubs he was obviously a member of and involved with in Chicago.

You mentioned there was some amateur status controversy with him. When was that and what was it about, as far as you know?

TEPaul

Re: HJ Tweedie
« Reply #41 on: November 22, 2010, 07:02:26 PM »
"TEP
What does social status or social structures have to do with Tweedie?"


Tom MacWood;


A lot obviously and that family tree you linked just explained (to me anyway) why Herbert James Tweedie belonged as a member to Royal Liverpool GC and apparently a few prominent early golf clubs in Chicago. Were you under the impression that clubs like that back then took in as members just anyone?

If so, I think we have a whole lot to discuss about the history of golf and golf clubs in America back then and for some time following that time of Tweedie's.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2010, 07:04:47 PM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HJ Tweedie
« Reply #42 on: November 22, 2010, 07:17:10 PM »

To even begin to understand whatever the relationship was between Tweedie and men like Macdonald and perhaps Whigam and other actual members of Chicago clubs of the 1890s we would probably have to get directly and deeply into the realities of the social structures of those worlds in those places back then....

Matter of fact, in my opinion, too much of today's presentation of various historical times and places and people, particularly those parts that we today view as socially or politically unattractive, has had far too much of those actual and historically factual realities stripped right out of it.


You obviously thought Tweedie was someone of lower status (that is until you read his family's history) which is why your post #35 came across as idiotic and nonsensical to anyone familiar with his background. Tweedie was early member of Chicago GC, he was also a member of Onwentsia and long time president of Belmont GC. He was also an honorary member of Glen View.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2010, 07:20:52 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re: HJ Tweedie
« Reply #43 on: November 22, 2010, 08:01:19 PM »
"You obviously thought Tweedie was someone of lower status (that is until you read his family's history) which is why your post #35 came across as idiotic and nonsensical to anyone familiar with his background. Tweedie was early member of Chicago GC, he was also a member of Onwentsia and long time president of Belmont GC. He was also an honorary member of Glen View."


Tom MacWood:

Absolutely I did. I don't deny it at all. And having read his voluminous family history I completely understand why he would've been a member of those clubs.

But that isn't the point here, at least not in my opinion. The point is to be completely historically accurate and factual about those men over here in that era who were recent emigrants from abroad who were not a part of that social world of those clubs and those people who belonged to them, including Tweedie, who practiced architecture over here and basically worked for those people and those clubs and could never dream of being a member of them.

THOSE are the people I want to try to look at more carefully and considerately and I want others to on here as well to more completely understand what they were up against in that world back then and certainly including WHY they may've gotten a bad rap or bad reputations for what they did in architecture both in the opinions of those clubs back then and in our opinions today, in some cases over a century removed!

Mike Cirba

Re: HJ Tweedie
« Reply #44 on: November 22, 2010, 08:50:11 PM »
Tom,

Did his architecture have any compelling value and/or interest?

What were some of the attributes of his style?

Greg Ohlendorf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HJ Tweedie
« Reply #45 on: November 22, 2010, 10:21:41 PM »
When I was reaching the material I posted on Flossmoor CC on the IMO section of this board, I also found the excellent family history of the Tweedie family. I had the opportunity to speak directly with HJ's grandson and great grandson. One was a long time member of CGC as well, if memory serves correctly.

Greg Ohlendorf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HJ Tweedie
« Reply #46 on: November 22, 2010, 10:24:22 PM »
One more note...board member Dan Moore has also found some very interesting writings by Tweedie that I believe he plans to include in a book on the earliest courses in the US that he is working on.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HJ Tweedie
« Reply #47 on: November 22, 2010, 10:37:18 PM »
TMac,

Thanks for sharing that, and especially for pointing us to the relevant page numbers.

I had always seen Tweedie's name around Chicago, although I have no idea if the stuff we were renovating had any original Tweedie work in it when I touched it.  If, in fact he did Glen View Golf Club  there were some neat old bunker vestiges, but they looked like Langford to me. 

I am still having trouble envisioning (not being the blueblood I need to be) what their life was like in America.  He came with his father, who was going to manage a livestock farm in MO, and when that failed, they somehow got to Chicago.  Being an employed manager of sports store all your life screams more middle class than upper class to me.  In other words, it doesn't necessarily seem as if family mondy followed them here.  If true, his family name and connections sure helped, as did his golf ability to run around in such high circles in Chicago.

At least Cornish and Whitten weren't wrong on this one, as he did manage the Spaulding store all his life, and then passed that job on to his son.  I am also curious about how he managed to do a side job with MacGregor and design courses while presumably holding down a full time job, unless he really was blueblood and the title of store manager was just more or less honorary.

Three jobs, seven kids...maybe he just stayed active and had high energy levels!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HJ Tweedie
« Reply #48 on: November 23, 2010, 06:20:41 AM »
Here is a little more information on the professionalism controversy. Prior to the match the article said 'a quiet scramble' for good players had been going on all spring. Most of the best players were members of both clubs (Chicago GC and Onwentsia) and one was bound to be disappointed. "It happened that the Chicago Club thought it had special reasons to feel sore at the loss of one of the crack players, and his capture by the Onwentsia caused no end of talk. Just when the tongues of the golfers were wagging at their liveliest over this matter it was learned Mr. Tweedie, who is paid $1200 a year, it is said, to manage the Lake Forest Club-house and grounds, was to be on the team. Not that anyone reflected on Mr. Tweedie personally. He was a golfer in both clubs before the Onwentsia secured his serventry."

Chicago objected to his involvement claiming he was a professional. They cited the Amateur Athletic Union rules on professionalism. Onwentsia cited the Golf Association (Western I'm guessing) definition of an amateur golfer. The Chicago Club then got the USGA involved, and they said it would highly repulsive for him to be involved in the match. HC Chaterfield-Taylor, the main man at Onwentsia, tried to appeal directly to Chicago, but that didn't work either, and Tweedie decided not to compete.

Onwentsia won the match anyway by eight holes led by HJ Whigham who defeated CB Macdonald in the marquee match.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HJ Tweedie
« Reply #49 on: November 23, 2010, 06:37:12 AM »
Tom,

Did his architecture have any compelling value and/or interest?

What were some of the attributes of his style?

Relative to his time I would say absolutely they had compelling value and interest. Onwentsia, Glen View, Homewood, Midlothian, Atlantic City, and Exmoor were considered among the best courses in the country around the turn of the century, and all hosted major championships. I'm not an expert on his architectural style but the one common description is challenging. Who had a better resume in 1900?

Another point that stood out in the family history was his connection to Col. J. Hamilton Gillespie, who was another one the best early American golf architects. He was an adviser to Gillespie whose designs were in Florida.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2010, 08:10:14 AM by Tom MacWood »

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