[Matt_Ward]

Cougar Canyon is a fine layout -- it is not the 20th best resort in the USA.

That's a big time stretch -- you have others in CO that are a good bit better.

[Doug Wright]

Cougar Canyon is a fine layout -- it is not the 20th best resort in the USA.

That's a big time stretch -- you have others in CO that are a good bit better.

I haven't played Cougar Canyon, but how can it be close to Broadmoor East, which IMO is very under-rated at #79?

[Matt_Ward]

Doug:

Bingo !!!!!!!

Cougar Canyon is not better than Broadmoor East -- heck, it's not even better than Four Mile Ranch or Lakota Canyon.

Big time error on Golfweek's part -- no doubt.

[Jim Franklin]

Doug:

Bingo !!!!!!!

Cougar Canyon is not better than Broadmoor East -- heck, it's not even better than Four Mile Ranch or Lakota Canyon.

Big time error on Golfweek's part -- no doubt.

Not Lakota Canyon again. Ugh.

[PThomas]

Doug:

Bingo !!!!!!!

Cougar Canyon is not better than Broadmoor East -- heck, it's not even better than Four Mile Ranch or Lakota Canyon.

Big time error on Golfweek's part -- no doubt.

Not Lakota Canyon again. Ugh.

some guy dragged me out there to see that course...

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

Great retort !

I know your take on LCR -- too bad you have not played Four Mile Ranch.

The resort listing clearly has some interesting additions.

[Steve Kline]

I understand that with lists such as these, the difference between #28 and #54 is negligible. That said, for those of you that have played both of the French Lick courses, which do you prefer? I've not played either, but the photos of the Ross appeal to me quite a bit more. Joe Bausch's photo tour of the Ross course was one of the best pictorials I've viewed on this site. I'm curious to hear how some of you have received the Dye course...

The Ross is better IMO. Just played both of them about two months ago. The Ross wasn't in as good of shape but it was my favorite. They are installing a two mile long pipe from the fresh water lakes on the Dye course to the Ross so that they can better maintain the Ross course. I have never seen anything like some of the greens at the Ross course. I can't imagine playing them with any significant speed.

[Andy Troeger]

Cougar Canyon is a fine layout -- it is not the 20th best resort in the USA.
That's a big time stretch -- you have others in CO that are a good bit better.

I haven't played Cougar Canyon, but how can it be close to Broadmoor East, which IMO is very under-rated at #79?

I don't think Cougar Canyon's placement is all that far off in this list. The course was far more interesting than I expected, including some blind shots that one doesn't normally see on a Nicklaus course (Chris Cochran was the lead I believe). I have it #2 public in Colorado behind only Lakota. I'm kind of surprised Cougar Canyon would be considered a resort, however. Broadmoor East could probably improve its position in my mind if it didn't keep the fairways at US Open width, but I would clearly favor Cougar Canyon anyway. Four Mile Ranch is a good one too, but I wouldn't have it as high as those other three.

[Adam Clayman]

Andy, You are aware of who's routing they used?

[Jud_T]

Perhaps the modern versus classic rating numbers are more comparable than we've been led to believe....

I got it from the horses mouth that they are NOT comparable. 

Jim,

Well then it seems apparent that they're just slapping these things together to cobble together another issue with a bunch of ads from the resorts.  Hate to think anyone goes to Whistling Straights over Pinehurst, for example, based on this list which doesn't compare courses based on the same criteria....

[Andy Troeger]

Andy, You are aware of who's routing they used?

I'm not, but its a good one. Although it never fails to frustrate me why someone would put a pond on the 18th hole in a desert-like environment when there hasn't been a single water feature through the first 17 holes. Whisper Rock's Upper Course did the same thing, and it just looks odd. The rest is darn good.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

You are a keen observer on many fronts but you are all wet on Cougar Canyon. It's a fine layout but not top 20 in the entire USA for all the resorts listed. Broadmoor is far superior and frankly there are a number of other public-only layouts that can easily challenge and surpass Cougar Canyon. Yes, the fairway widths could be wider but the overall routing and hole diversity clearly is there over the likes of Cougar Canyon.

Baxter Spann did much of the work that Adam alludes to and frankly the course is just one long slog for a number of the holes. There are spots where things pick up -- the holes on the higher terrain are clearly better but the shot differentiation and the diversity of the holes is fairly predictable. I like the short "island" par-3 on the back -- great concept in using the Pete Dye 17th at TPC / Sawgrass concept albeit with a western flair.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
If I remember right, part of the disagreement is that the back tees are way back at CC with a huge gap (1000 yards+) to the next set, with the regular tees are more like 6500 yards. The course admittedly does provide more variety from further up than it would from 7600 yards--its tough to have short holes and get to that length. I'm not really that interested in the 7500+ yard tees at Cougar Canyon or anywhere else--no course would be fun for me at that length. From the other tees, the variety is good and the challenge still present. I saw far more variety there than at Broadmoor, where many of the holes blended together for me, especially on the RTJ holes from about 11-14 (give or take).

[Jim Nugent]

Golfweek listed Pebble at #8 on the 2010 classic list.  That may mean they rank Old Mac no worse than 10th in the nation overall.  Not a bad way to come out of the starting blocks. 

Doak has America's two top-ranked resort courses.  Two of the top three moderns.  Within a year or two, he may have seven or so on the world top 100.  And I bet I'm not the only one more than a little curious to see how his new FL course turns out. 

Really cool that guys like Tom and the other architects post on this DG!

 

[William_G]

Golfweek listed Pebble at #8 on the 2010 classic list.  That may mean they rank Old Mac no worse than 10th in the nation overall.  Not a bad way to come out of the starting blocks. 

Doak has America's two top-ranked resort courses.  Two of the top three moderns.  Within a year or two, he may have seven or so on the world top 100.  And I bet I'm not the only one more than a little curious to see how his new FL course turns out. 

Really cool that guys like Tom and the other architects post on this DG!

 

for sure!

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Courses should be judged from ALL TEE BOXES -- the tips are part of the course.

Minus the par-3 16th I found CC to be relatively blah -- the land allowed for massive width and length fairways that really don't differentiate shotmaking -- they were done to handle the high winds that can whip up.

I see CC as a good course but the original layout was done by Baxter Spann and the Nicklaus team didn't really distinguish themselves there.

CO has a great array of courses and CC is not top 20 in all of the USA -- the folks who posted such high numbers really need to play some additional courses to get some meaingful perspective.

[J Sadowsky]

Andy:

Courses should be judged from ALL TEE BOXES -- the tips are part of the course.

Minus the par-3 16th I found CC to be relatively blah -- the land allowed for massive width and length fairways that really don't differentiate shotmaking -- they were done to handle the high winds that can whip up.

I see CC as a good course but the original layout was done by Baxter Spann and the Nicklaus team didn't really distinguish themselves there.

CO has a great array of courses and CC is not top 20 in all of the USA -- the folks who posted such high numbers really need to play some additional courses to get some meaingful perspective.

I agree that the course should be judged by all tee boxes, but I don't think a particular course should be penalized for having one set of tee boxes being bad vs. the same exact course without those tee boxes at all, unless those tee boxes actually do interfere with the enjoyment of those who choose not to play from those boxes.  If the course struggles from pace of play or walkability because of the existence of those tee boxes, that is one thing.  Otherwise, the effect of a bad option that is still only an option should be nil.

[Matt_Ward]

Justin:

A course that has a bad set of tees from tip usage is flawed and that flaw plays a role -- or should play a role -- in its overall assessment.

I have no idea on whether you have played CC but the course doesn't provide anything but increased distance from the tips. The land forms are fairly tame -- save for the fascinating par-3 16th hole -- and as a result it looks like "anywhere USA" design. Just as people on this site and elsewhere want to emphasize the playability dimension of the middle and forward tees -- the champ / tip tees should be equally evaluated and assessed accoringly in my mind.

Given the quality of so many top tier golf resorts here in the USA -- for CC to be rated among the top 20 is truly mindboggling indeed in my mind.

[J Sadowsky]

Justin:

A course that has a bad set of tees from tip usage is flawed and that flaw plays a role -- or should play a role -- in its overall assessment.

I have no idea on whether you have played CC but the course doesn't provide anything but increased distance from the tips. The land forms are fairly tame -- save for the fascinating par-3 16th hole -- and as a result it looks like "anywhere USA" design. Just as people on this site and elsewhere want to emphasize the playability dimension of the middle and forward tees -- the champ / tip tees should be equally evaluated and assessed accoringly in my mind.

Given the quality of so many top tier golf resorts here in the USA -- for CC to be rated among the top 20 is truly mindboggling indeed in my mind.

I've never played CC and was making a general point.  I just don't see your argument.  If the bad set of tees are not played from, they don't play a role in how the course is enjoyed under any set of criteria.  Unless the flaw is in encouraging people to play from those tips -- an argument that I don't really buy -- then the solution to a bad set of tees is just to ignore them.  That's what an option is - its a choice.

It is also, in another view, sort of like college football recruiting.  Should a 25 player recruiting class, with 2 5 star athletes, 18 4 star athletes and 5 2 star athletes, be ranked below a recruiting class that has 19 4 star athletes, because of the lower average star rating? 

[Matt_Ward]

Justin:

The scorecard lists the back tees and they are assigned a CR and slope. They are therefore in play and need to be assessed.

The idea that they can be ruled out as an inconsequential element is inane -- they have a role and need to be assessed accordingly.

I don't doubt many people should play from middle or frontal tees -- but a course needs to be seen through its total picture -- and that includes the back tee element.

Let me just add this -- the issue w CC is beyond this rather tiny and frankly irrelevant point. The course got spiked ratings to land it within the top 20 among all resorts and frankly the terrain and overall diversity of holes and routing don't just add up to that high a position in my mind. Heck, Colorado golf is that good and CC would be fortunate to garner a top 20 position when all courses are considered.

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