[John Kavanaugh]

I do find the use of so many catch basins in a sand quarry to be quite innovative. 

[Craig Disher]

I think they have slightly different meanings but no matter.

Perhaps why I view TR as so innovative is that many of the features that made it such an unlikely gc site were built into the course; the character of the original sand quarry is very evident throughout. The crater on the right of #11 is a leftover from the quarry. The huge berms on the left and right of #1 (ok, so Strantz built one of them) also recall it. The owners could have followed a more conventional approach, flattened the site, and built another typical sandhills course. But they and Strantz didn't. It's one thing to build a gc on a great site, or on a site that can be completely re-formed, but to build it on a crappy site like TR and pretty much leave the land like you found it is unusual.

[Craig Disher]

I do find the use of so many catch basins in a sand quarry to be quite innovative. 

No, John, that's unique.

[Brian Marion]

I have only played Tobacco Road once, but it was quite enjoyable. Innovative? Maybe not, but it was a FUN golf course and ranks up there as one of my favorites.

That said, I wonder if ALL the sand as delineated as some waste are and some bunker (no practice swings) would it e enjoyed or liked as much? I almost felt as if I was cheating taking full practice swings in bunkers next to the green.

Food for thought.

Originally, some were bunkers and some were waste bunkers. I can remember early on there being rakes.

Problem was that most groups were taking wayyyy too long raking!

As such, TBR HAS been softened since it's opening. It was a much harder course early on. Harder pins, bunkers, faster conditions, etc led to some very unhappy golfers and very long rounds.

In some ways, doesn't just being able to have a debate about the course being innovative, mean that it is in some ways, to some people? If it were truly run of the mill, the answer would be a quick NO. I think it shows what can be done if designers are left alone and allowed to be creative. OF course, the danger in that is something like Tot Hill.

A quick story-

Years ago I was finishing a round and Mike Stranz was being interviewed on the back of 18 green. He must have been quite ill at the time because he was very thin and it took a second for me to recognize him.

After adding up the scores, we watched another group come through and as they approached the clubhouse up the stairs, the head pro asked "what did you think?". The reply was " I would like to give the SOB who designed this place a piece of my mind"

"Go ahead, he's standing right there" was the answer

Priceless-

Stranz was gone less than 18 months after that.....

[Sean_A]

Holy moly, if The Road isn't innovative, what is? 

Ciao

[George Pazin]

Holy moly, if The Road isn't innovative, what is? 

Ciao

I think that was part of JakaB's point.

Is is really innovative? I don't know. You'd have to define innovative first before proceeding.

I found it fun, that's what counts to me. And upon further reflection, I found the depth of several of the greens - or more accurately, the lack of depth - to be unusual to say the least. And 18's tee shot is pretty unique as well. Innovative? Not sure.

Brian Marion, thanks for sharing those thoughts and that story.

[Brandon Skopelja]

I will def report back with my thoughts and pictures.
Playing that Sat morning then over to the National. Dormie on Sunday and Southern Pines Tues. Should be a fun cold trip

[Brian Marion]

I will def report back with my thoughts and pictures.
Playing that Sat morning then over to the National. Dormie on Sunday and Southern Pines Tues. Should be a fun cold trip

Brandon, can you shoot me a conditions report on TBR? I'm there next Friday...

Have fun, sounds like a great trip...

[RJ_Daley]

I'd have to come down on the side of not so much innovative and more on the side of unique to have so many quirky elements in a course that still plays easier than it looks.  It was bold, and made a statement as a new golf course in 1999.  Mike wasn't afraid to incorporate unconventional design aspects into a total package that keeps your interest and stimulates your imagination for the entire round.  It has unique looks that you simply don't see to often unless you are such a world golf traveller that you have seen a heck of a lot, and might recall some feature look that might remind you of some other quirky hole characteristic elsewhere. 

I haven't been there in quite a while.  I did have the great pleasure to play with one of the Stewarts before it even opened for regular play by about a couple months.  Then I played it a number of other times over the next few years.  Each and every time I played, I was as excited to see and play the unique looking holes and enjoy the overall experience, without any feeling of the familiar leading to the comfortable or ordinary.  I think Stranz's methods of drawing or painting watercolor holes to aid his shaper Forrest Fezler, and their overall shorthand to conceive and build concepts, was not innovative or exclusively unique, but it was bold and creative and talented.

[Bruce Wellmon]

Whether it was my inexperience at the time, TR was the first course I had played that the architect had "torn the earth asunder."

[Chris DeNigris]

1.  Like it or not TR (like it's big sis RNK) punches you in the nose as soon as you leave the putting green. The knees buckle a little as you try to find the right line for your first swing of the day. That sets the visual intimidation tone right at the start, making it play harder than it should for many.

2. How many other courses do play and then say- "That really reminds me of Tobacco Road"?

3. What other courses are similar?

4. Different kind of quirk but TR is the NBerwick of North Carolina.

5. There are only a handful of courses that could be included in this thread title and not many that you'd think of before TR.

[Ronald Montesano]

My thoughts...

*John K., what is the point of the thread?  Are you attempting to contradict another one where a claim is staked for innovation?

**I find Tobacco Road to be the best of the five Strantz I have played to date...TR, Stonehouse, RNK, True Blue and THF.  I mean that in a comprehensive way.  It may not be the toughest (RNK and SH have it beat) but it was the most consistent (in its abstractness) and the most rewarding (if you hit the shot, you were rewarded.)  As I go over the course in my mind, I cannot conceive of a better finish to a round, beginning with #13.  Here goes.

13...par five that you can go at if played from the proper tee...if you hit it short, the double dogleg makes you work for your par, but a deftly played and blind third will give you a run at birdie in the punch bowl.

14...hitting that slice of green with a nicely played draw (sorry, lefties) from just off the pond is one of my great thrills in golf.  Missed the short birdie putt but, then again, I suck.

15...forgetting how wide the split fairway was, I bailed waaaaay right, finding the middle of the right fairway, then acted like I planned it...made par at a back left pin and then had fun hitting the swinging putt.  Coming down 16, i watched a guy from front left and commented to Lynch "that guy just might putt it into the front bunker, as he has no creativity.  Rather than play the slope, the sumbitch putted it straight at the hole and into the bunker!!!)

16...Just like #13, except the blind shot is the tee ball!!.  Great uphill wedge or 9-iron to a wide but tricky green.

17...not nearly the oaf that people make it out to be.  We played the most boring pin, the front left...could only imagine it higher up on the right.

18...year, right...stand on those back tees and try not to feel like a god.  What a great tee shot.  Hearkens back to the carry on #11.  Then comes the little approach into a reverse-pear that falls off on all sides.


Maybe the Strantz innovation was his circular referencing, a la Jorge Luis Borges, to previously-played holes on the course.

[jim_lewis]

It may not be "innovative", but I think TR holds the record for the most blind shot on one 18-hole course. I think I lost count at 11.

[Phil McDade]

It may not be "innovative", but I think TR holds the record for the most blind shot on one 18-hole course. I think I lost count at 11.

Jim:

Interesting; I'm curious -- what's your definition of a blind shot?

[Jeff_Brauer]

I never thought about what made it innovative, but came away thinking it was innovative as hell, and it influenced the Quarry at Giant's Ridge, which I let Mike know.  I didn't want to go as far over the top as he did, but it sure shows what can be done if you think out of the box a bit.  Mostly, it convinced me that large (and deep!) sand waste areas wouldn't be too much of a burden on a resort course.  Its not like average golfers are going to hit EVERY ONE of them and slow play down too much.

I also liked the extravagant, long or wide greens which I hadn't seen before, and the occaisional really high tiered step in some greens.  (most two tier greens are separated by a foot, not five or ten feet)  Now, I think he overused them, and I only use them on a one time basis per course (at most) but they do make a nice "conversation piece" green.

When I think about totally created golf courses, it is a different style than Fazio sinking Shadow Creek 50 feet and then building a more or less typical Fazio course.  With Strantz, every inch is shaped for maximum visual effect, sometimes at the expense of good golf.  To be fair, Robert Von Hagge did a lot of the same thing, but never to my memory had the vertical elevation changes that Mike S did in his shaping.

While its hard to describe, I guess that while shaping everywhere was not new, the innovation is in his command of 3D space whereas most gca's really think in 2D more than they should.  I don't know that any particular play concepts were all that innovative, other than the huge greens.

[J Sadowsky]

I never thought about what made it innovative, but came away thinking it was innovative as hell, and it influenced the Quarry at Giant's Ridge, which I let Mike know.  I didn't want to go as far over the top as he did, but it sure shows what can be done if you think out of the box a bit.  Mostly, it convinced me that large (and deep!) sand waste areas wouldn't be too much of a burden on a resort course.  Its not like average golfers are going to hit EVERY ONE of them and slow play down too much.

I also liked the extravagant, long or wide greens which I hadn't seen before, and the occaisional really high tiered step in some greens.  (most two tier greens are separated by a foot, not five or ten feet)  Now, I think he overused them, and I only use them on a one time basis per course (at most) but they do make a nice "conversation piece" green.

When I think about totally created golf courses, it is a different style than Fazio sinking Shadow Creek 50 feet and then building a more or less typical Fazio course.  With Strantz, every inch is shaped for maximum visual effect, sometimes at the expense of good golf.  To be fair, Robert Von Hagge did a lot of the same thing, but never to my memory had the vertical elevation changes that Mike S did in his shaping.

While its hard to describe, I guess that while shaping everywhere was not new, the innovation is in his command of 3D space whereas most gca's really think in 2D more than they should.  I don't know that any particular play concepts were all that innovative, other than the huge greens.

You clearly haven't seen me play.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Justin,

I will add that at Giant's Ridge, the first course I did there is a "gentle Giant" which gave me and them some flexibility to make the Quarry tougher, since guests would still have the option to play the other one, or go up the street to play the Wilderness.  For many golfers, those other two courses, which are more forgiving, are more popular, but I think the Quarry leads in rounds played, despite the difficulty. 

As a friend of mine often says while we are dining out, "You can't get this at home!" which I think accounts for the slight popularity advantage of the Quarry.

Back to TR, given the number of high quality traditional golf courses in the same resort area, I doubt the owner and gca gave much thought to yet another traditional course.  In its situation, doing something completely out of the box was more likely to garner at least one round from each visitor than another pale copy of Pinehurst 2 or other classics in the area.

[jim_lewis]

Phil:

For me a blind shot is one where I can not see the target landing area. That includes one where I can only see the top of the flag stick.

[RJ_Daley]

Jeff, that was very helpful in seeing the issue from your GCA perspective, and how it gave some influence to you in your work.  The observation about the owner/developer's having the vision of offering something unique in the area is also right on target, IMO.  In every sense of the word 'bold' TR makes a statement and carves out a place in the realm of unique or innovative thinking, to whatever degree that makes for a great conversation.

[Derek_Duncan]

I don't really know if Tobacco Road is innovative or not, and it doesn't really matter to me if it is or isn't. I think it's one of the most fun courses I know of.

To me what Strantz did there best was to create a total visual composition using everything available to him. He manufactured quite a bit but also left alone things that other architects would have modified. And most of the holes he built were first created, rather elaborately, on paper, which he then took to the field and installed.

I'm sure lots of architects have worked toward similar goals and tried to present a completely mastered vision, but most aren't equally interested in also camouflaging targets, working in such unusual shapes and sizes, and frightening the player.

If there's innovation its somewhere in the way he combined a highly orchestrated landscape with unnerving architectural features that mess with your perception of depth and make you to question your faith in execution. Tobacco Road tries to please you and terrify you at the same time.

[A.G._Crockett]

Holy moly, if The Road isn't innovative, what is? 

Ciao

Thanks, Sean.  That is EXACTLY how I feel.  It is certainly the most innovative course I've ever seen, and to whatever extent TR isn't innovative, there won't be any other innovative courses built.  Of course each of the features found at TR can be found other places, but is there any other SINGLE place that puts so many things together so differently?

I don't think TR is a perfect golf course by any means, and I understand why it is left off so many Top 100 lists.  But innovative?  Yes, and then some.

Also, I'm not sure why so many of you consider the site to be so poorly suited for golf, other than the fact that it used to be a sand quarry for an asphalt plant.  Enlighten, please.

[Ronald Montesano]

A.G.Crockett (and Tubbs),

Why is TR not perfect?  I found it to be perfect in pace and rhythm, perfect visually, perfect in appropriate challenge, perfect in feigned deception...

A course can be perfect and still not be the best...happens in NCAA football with some frequency.

What do you find imperfect about TR?

[John Shimp]

I totally agree with the "easiest hard course comment".  Why is it not harder given all the waste and mounds?   My thought is the greens are relatively easy and you have to discipline yourself to play away from the waste area and not cut it close.  I do think it is fun and really like the finish to the course.  The best thing to me is how many exhilarating shots he stuffed in eg. Opening tee ball, drive on the last, etc.

[A.G._Crockett]

A.G.Crockett (and Tubbs),

Why is TR not perfect?  I found it to be perfect in pace and rhythm, perfect visually, perfect in appropriate challenge, perfect in feigned deception...

A course can be perfect and still not be the best...happens in NCAA football with some frequency.

What do you find imperfect about TR?

Ronald,
I love TR, but I do understand a couple of the criticisms of it.

1. The routing is such that walking is tough, even in the relatively flat sandhills of NC. 

2. The gap between the course rating and the slope rating is gigantic; I didn't understand the impact of this until I played it with a high handicapper who was struggling off the tee.  I wouldn't say the course was unplayable for him, but it surely wasn't much fun.  It is not at all a difficult course for a good golfer, but it is not hacker-friendly at all.  This is the one that keeps it out of at least some of the Top 100 lists.

That said, I think Mike Strantz did exactly what he wanted to do at TR.  He built a course unlike not only anything else in the area, but anything else anywhere.  It is the coolest, funniest, most unique golf course I've ever played, and I love it dearly.  As I do all of his courses.

[Steve Lang]

   what was..

back when it opened, i believe its only Sandhills quirk competition was The Pit (Dan Maples), which was also built in a quarry and Maples left some of its "as found" things there (notably the sand ridges from panning out sand in parallel rows).  As at TR if you can't hit a ball straight or guide it at a target.. you're not going to like it

back when it opened, the alternatives in the area pretty much blend to gether if you stay a week there going two a day, never playing the same course. 

it simply stood out visually

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