[John Kavanaugh]

I've played Tobacco Road, with Ran no less, so in an attempt to keep this positive and civil, I simply ask the question.

[Bill_McBride]

Absolutely no attempt to keep golfers in their comfort zone.

[Thomas McQuillan]

two tees 90 degrees apart which make a par 3 play completely differently depending which side you play from

[Craig Disher]

Constructing a golf course on a site totally unsuited for it - and making it work

[Jud_T]

two tees 90 degrees apart which make a par 3 play completely differently depending which side you play from

This was done 8 years earlier at the Dunes Club in Michigan....

[Sean_A]

Other than the truly innovative 6th hole, I think there is a combination of factors which encourages folks to think of The Road as innovative.  When all these factors come together on one site it really is something different.  

Willingness to use sharp doglegs

Blind shots

Do or don't die shots - balls can be found found in the (see below)

Waste bunkers (no proper hazards)

A few greens which one can't putt at the hole if in the wrong spot

One green which can putted using two very different routes to the hole

Several shallow/wide greens

Illusion of long forced carries

A 6550 yard course (from the tips) built at a time (which continues today) when common belief was a course needed to be 7000 yards for marketing purposes

Controversy as a time when archies were out to placate to consumers


Tobacco Road is easily the most innovative modern course I have seen or heard of and surprisingly it has done fairly well on its own terms.  That doesn't mean it coudln't be improved by softening it some, but why bother when its not a member's club?

Ciao

[Mark McKeever]

two tees 90 degrees apart which make a par 3 play completely differently depending which side you play from

This was done 8 years earlier at the Dunes Club in Michigan....

Cal Club has 8 years beat on that concept.

Mark

[Peter Pallotta]

As in Ian Andrew's thread about the innovative, I see here that I must have a very different notion from most of what that word means, and what qualifies as innovation. I appreciate Sean outlining TR's qualities -- but putting together on one course a whole array of (common and conventional) features that are not normally found all in one place doesn't strike me as innovative. Not that there's anything wrong with that; as I said on the other thread, I don't much care if something is innovative or not.

Peter

[JESII]

Royal New Kent was more eye-popping and better to me...and it's a couple years older.

I've never gotten the deal about Tobacco Road around here. I think it's fun and interesting, but not innovative.

[Phil McDade]

Constructing a golf course on a site totally unsuited for it - and making it work

This was done at Harborside in Chicago....

...and Whistling Straits....

....and Victoria National

[Jud_T]

Tobacco Road is easily the most innovative modern course I have seen or heard of and surprisingly it has done fairly well on its own terms.  That doesn't mean it coudln't be improved by softening it some, but why bother when its not a member's club?

Ciao

Sean,

I think there'd be even less reason to soften it if it were private....

[Bart Bradley]

In my opinion, no individual features were innovative.

It is unusual, and an unusual mix of strategies and features seen before and elsewhere...

One could argue that the innovation was putting all those unusual features in one course.

Bart

[Michael Whitaker]

John - Man, you are good at pushing the right buttons! Glad to have you back!!!

There is nothing "innovative" at Tobacco Road. It is all derived.

You can find a version of everything on that course on some other course. What makes TR different is that there are so many unique and unusual features brought together in one place.

Mike

PS - Nice name drop!

[John Kavanaugh]

Michael,

Thanks,

Was that the trip where I took home your wedge?  Tobacco Road will always hold a special place in my heart because of my round with Ran and the fact that it is built next to an Asphalt Plant.  I'm not positive but I believe that it may be located in the quarry that would have been used to build part of our nations greatest asset.

The most innovative thing about the design was told to me before I ever laid eyes on the course by an assistant from Mid-Pines that was kind enough caddie for me at Pine Needles when my guy didn't show up.  He said, which later proved to be true "It's the easiest hard looking course you will ever play."

I believe I played with Ran, Jeff Goldman and some kid named Pouches.  What ever happened to Pouches?

[Phil McDade]

You can find a version of everything on that course on some other course. What makes TR different is that there are so many unique and unusual features brought together in one place.

Mike

Mike:

TR cannot, by definition, have unique features, of which versions can be found on some other course.

[Brandon Skopelja]

I am playing Sat morning for the first time. Im looking forward to seeing what its all about.

[Craig Disher]

Constructing a golf course on a site totally unsuited for it - and making it work

This was done at Harborside in Chicago....

...and Whistling Straits....

....and Victoria National

I think those sites already had some features which made them appealing for building a gc - isn't Harborside is just a few miles from downtown Chicago? TR is sited on top of an abandoned sand quarry and successfully competes with the Pinehurst courses which are 20 miles away. The owners really went out on a limb with the site and trusted Strantz to do something INNOVATIVE. 

[RSLivingston_III]

I thought the drama of many of the holes made them unique. Maybe the innovation was having so many and blending them together so well made it innovative?

[Bill_McBride]

It has the smallest punchbowl green I've ever seen - except maybe #2 at Pennard!

[Phil McDade]

Constructing a golf course on a site totally unsuited for it - and making it work

This was done at Harborside in Chicago....

...and Whistling Straits....

....and Victoria National

I think those sites already had some features which made them appealing for building a gc - isn't Harborside is just a few miles from downtown Chicago? TR is sited on top of an abandoned sand quarry and successfully competes with the Pinehurst courses which are 20 miles away. The owners really went out on a limb with the site and trusted Strantz to do something INNOVATIVE. 

Harborside was built on top of a landfill. Yes, it's near downtown.

WStraits was a former military dump site.

Victoria National was a strip mine.

None were what you might call conducive to building a golf course; I'm not sure Tob. Road is unique in that respect.

[Craig Disher]

I thought we were talking about innovative, not unique.

[George Pazin]

I am playing Sat morning for the first time. Im looking forward to seeing what its all about.

Have fun, and be sure to report back with your thoughts and experiences.

I can't say I personally found that much innovative about TR, but I'm the wrong guy to ask (don't have the breadth of experience).

I will say, the waste area bunker that runs up the right side of the 11th hole is far and away the deepest bunker I've ever seen, at least up by the green.

[Richard Hetzel]

I have only played Tobacco Road once, but it was quite enjoyable. Innovative? Maybe not, but it was a FUN golf course and ranks up there as one of my favorites.

That said, I wonder if ALL the sand as delineated as some waste are and some bunker (no practice swings) would it e enjoyed or liked as much? I almost felt as if I was cheating taking full practice swings in bunkers next to the green.

Food for thought.

[Anthony Gray]

  The lines off the tee is what stands out for me.An off the charts local knowledge course in America.

   Anthony

[Phil McDade]

I thought we were talking about innovative, not unique.

You say innovate, I say unique -- let's call the whole thing off.

I don't think building a golf course on land seemingly unsuited for it is either innovative or unique; it's been done frequently.

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