[JESII]

Perfect!

[Bill_McBride]

I think for a member playing his home course a lot, "randomness" is the key.  If you play the blue tees and they are always in the same general location, and the pins are rotated front/center/back/front, etc, you're going to get bored.

At my club we used the front/center/back method (#1 is front, #2 is center, #3 is back, #4 is front, etc ad nauseum).  If you played Thursday and again on Sunday, the pins were way too likely to be in the same place.  Thank heavens we changed that.  The super is also randomly moving tees around.  It's a lot more interesting.

[JESII]

The most valuable result of a really concerted effort to maximize enjoyment is something Kyle and Scott do at Huntingdon Valley...when the greens are slower and/or softer they find and use more challenging locations on the greens than under the "ideal" conditions permit.

Changing hole lengths dramatically would be interesting but I haven't ever seen it done anywhere.

[John Kavanaugh]

Why doesn't the Director of Golf approve the course set up everyday?  Am I wrong in the assumption that DoG only gets involved in course set up for special events?  I understand that a DoG needs his sleep but with modern communication tools it would a simple check off over morning coffee.

[Pete Lavallee]

I've just noticed from Kyle's link that the USGA stongly encourages golf courses to maintain the overall length and difficulty of the course in an effort to make their completely flawed handicap system work. Why should we forsake variety in our casual daily play rounds to help butress a system that can only seem to keep honest people honest? At least they do recommend varying the hole length with odd numbered holes playing a little longer on the same day that even numbered holes will play a little shorter.

Here in San Diego the most popular municpal course is Coronado GC; they do over 100,00 rounds a year and have a real need to spread the wear around. However their simple system is to have the tees up when the pin is back, middle tees for a middle pin and the back of the tee for a front pin. This is truely exasperating as every hole requires the same club every day! I can't think of a worst possible system; those who play there several times a week must find it either extremely frustrating or pathetically comforting that # 9 will always be a 6 iron.  

[Kyle Harris]

Pete:

Dean Knuth has just turned all of American amateur golf into a giant controlled experiment, is all.

[Adrian_Stiff]

As a superintendent I will tell you that no single day is more important than any other .  Each of those days have their own unique characteristics that need to be considered when making decisions.  We provide a daily pin sheet of our hole locations.  I do not like the "section" systems at all.  I want to put the hole today where I want and not be limited to what some random grid instructs me to do.  My club is closed on Mondays.  Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays are typically played by senior men and ladies.  We will try and accomodate them without making things too diffiult.  Friday has developed a reputation for being the day to bring multiple guests and thus we want to showcase the course but pace of play can be an issue with so many on the course that are unfamiliar.  Saturdays are extremely busy and very hectic.  Sundays are less stressful.  Each day takes on its own personality because the weather conditions are different from one week to the next.  Perhaps we just had a big tournament and we need to spread out the foot traffic a little more than usual.  There are way too many factors to ponder and you just have to do the best job you can to provide quality playing conditions each day.  The job of you the player is to play the course as you find it.  It really is that simple.  

Well said Matt. The average Joe just does not understand what goes on behind the scenes and the many possibles that lead to the pin not being there or being there. Too many expect the course to be provided exactly for their game on the day they play.

[John Kavanaugh]

Pete:

Dean Knuth has just turned all of American amateur golf into a giant controlled experiment, is all.

Kyle,

Many modern courses have many different ratings according to choice of tee color.  Some days we are playing the blues but the placements feel like the reds and our low scores reflect this feeling.  This program would give a more accurate reading on what course rating was played that day, by actual yardage, and thus enhance your little manual.  I am confident that many a time a card reads 7000 yds and we are playing 6700 and so on and so on.  It is flat never the reverse which only goes to give an honest man too low a handicap.

[Pete Lavallee]

It is flat never the reverse which only goes to give an honest man too low a handicap.

Indeed, that why a CONGU system which only counts scores recorded in competion and adjusts these scores for the average of the field that day,  would handicap honest people much more equitably.

[John Kavanaugh]

The is no doubt in my mind that a fair and just handicap system would increase club revenues as events become more fun and thus more populated.  By definition sandbaggers do not pay the bills.

[John Kavanaugh]

One last comment. Posting scores from artificially short course set ups leads to the Yogi Berra school of event participation.
 
The more you play the better you get which leads to fewer events you can win.

[Matt Wharton]

I know from my earlier public golf playing days there were numerous courses which would move all colors forward on the weekend (thus the 7000+ tips played at 6700, etc.) to eliminate players from playing the course at its full length during crowded times.  Public, resort and private are all going to have different needs when it comes to setting up for their patrons.  As for the comments earlier regarding the overall length stay within a given range from day to day I say  .  In my opinion there isn't anything wrong with a hole playing significantly different length from one to the next.  Just go with what feels right.  Besides, wind alone can make a 350 yd hole play 350 one day, 295 the next and 405 the next.  The golfer is entitled to nothing other than knowing when they find their ball they must play it as it lies  .

[Kyle Harris]

A 7000 yard tee playing at 6700 yards is just within the +/- 22 yards per hole allowance outline in the manual.

So this argument is a non-starter as far as the experimental conditions are concerned.

As far as hole locations go, the USGA Handicap Manual limits them, especially as far as distance from the edge where I believe 15 foot is the closest one can get to the edge of a putting green.

That's not a lot of room to work with.

[Dan Herrmann]

JK - Just read your post on having the director of golf do the setup.  I doubt that many courses/clubs have such a position on the payroll.

Get a good super and team that understands golf, and you'll be in great shape.

I'd suggest that having a guy like Kyle set up the course would work a lot better than having the pro/DoG do it on a day-to-day basis.

[Matt Wharton]

Amen Dan!

A super who understands golf is key.  Also, those members of his team that participate in the set-up procedures must also understand the game.  I have lots of staff members perfectly capable of cutting a perfect hole and placing tee markers but only those that either play the game or have shown me they understand the game are assigned the task.  There are lots of supers that don't play and frankly I am incapable of understanding that fully just because I have played for so long.  My love for the game drew me to the profession.

[Bill_McBride]

Amen Dan!

A super who understands golf is key.  Also, those members of his team that participate in the set-up procedures must also understand the game.  I have lots of staff members perfectly capable of cutting a perfect hole and placing tee markers but only those that either play the game or have shown me they understand the game are assigned the task.  There are lots of supers that don't play and frankly I am incapable of understanding that fully just because I have played for so long.  My love for the game drew me to the profession.

Who set than pin on #7 Sunday?  C'mon, which one of you sadistic sickos?   

[Matt Wharton]

Bill

That would be my first assistant.  I met with him on Wednesday and explained we were having a Men's Guest Day on Friday and you Dixie Cuppers on Sunday.  With me out due to my wisdom tooth extraction I asked him to choose hole locations for both days in advance with only the following instructions: keep pace of play in mind but save a couple of "good ones" for each event so the guys will have something to talk about after the rounds 

I love your use of the word sadistic; it reminds me of the Odyssey Golf commercial from about 10 years ago.  Do you remember the super rolling the golf balls towards the freshly cut hole location only to smile devilishly as each ball broke away from the hole when it got there.  That ad caused quite a stir on our association message board back then for portraying our profession negatively but deep down inside there is a little of that in all of us with the gene

[Bill_McBride]

Bill

That would be my first assistant.  I met with him on Wednesday and explained we were having a Men's Guest Day on Friday and you Dixie Cuppers on Sunday.  With me out due to my wisdom tooth extraction I asked him to choose hole locations for both days in advance with only the following instructions: keep pace of play in mind but save a couple of "good ones" for each event so the guys will have something to talk about after the rounds 

I love your use of the word sadistic; it reminds me of the Odyssey Golf commercial from about 10 years ago.  Do you remember the super rolling the golf balls towards the freshly cut hole location only to smile devilishly as each ball broke away from the hole when it got there.  That ad caused quite a stir on our association message board back then for portraying our profession negatively but deep down inside there is a little of that in all of us with the gene

Not sure it was the best choice for pace of play though!

I always heard the old wives tale that the cup where putts break away in all directions is caused by the hole cutter pulling up on the equipment.  Anything to that?   
He did a great job, Matt.  Reading between the lines, we loved it!   

[Matt Wharton]

Bill

We call that a "volcano".  It happens on occasions when the person cutting the hole does not pay attention to what they are doing.  If you are not careful you can cause the area around the hole to "lift" and the effect is exactly as you described, balls will break away from the hole in all directions.  Doesn't happen at CGC though.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill

We call that a "volcano".  It happens on occasions when the person cutting the hole does not pay attention to what they are doing.  If you are not careful you can cause the area around the hole to "lift" and the effect is exactly as you described, balls will break away from the hole in all directions.  Doesn't happen at CGC though.

So it's not an old wives tale, and of course it never happens at CGC!

[Grant Saunders]

Often, hole placement can be a function of factors such as old holes, weak areas, disease and other turf pressures dictating where the hole can actually be postitioned. Bear in mind also that a green will only have a finite number of possible hole placements so not all will be considered to compliment the strategy of the hole.

For those who are concerned with varying the length a hole plays, remember that you dont have to hit the same club off the tee every time. If you normally hit a driver, hitting a 3 iron can make for a completely different hole.

[John Gosselin]

I think for a member playing his home course a lot, "randomness" is the key.  If you play the blue tees and they are always in the same general location, and the pins are rotated front/center/back/front, etc, you're going to get bored.

At my club we used the front/center/back method (#1 is front, #2 is center, #3 is back, #4 is front, etc ad nauseum).  If you played Thursday and again on Sunday, the pins were way too likely to be in the same place.  Thank heavens we changed that.  The super is also randomly moving tees around.  It's a lot more interesting.

Are you saying your club changes cups every day? I would think that would be highly unusual. Must get a lot of play and have a lot of old cups on the greens.

[Bill_McBride]

I think for a member playing his home course a lot, "randomness" is the key.  If you play the blue tees and they are always in the same general location, and the pins are rotated front/center/back/front, etc, you're going to get bored.

At my club we used the front/center/back method (#1 is front, #2 is center, #3 is back, #4 is front, etc ad nauseum).  If you played Thursday and again on Sunday, the pins were way too likely to be in the same place.  Thank heavens we changed that.  The super is also randomly moving tees around.  It's a lot more interesting.

Are you saying your club changes cups every day? I would think that would be highly unusual. Must get a lot of play and have a lot of old cups on the greens.

Every day but Monday.  Pretty consistent 35,000 rounds.  The new course was finished in 2006, so not a lot of old cups.  Are you a super?  Matt Wharton seems to imply above that his cups are changed daily.

[Carl Rogers]

People,
This is another thread in whcih you are trying to turn an art (the game and all of its incalcuable variables) into a science (something that can be measured).  I am not entirely comfortable with the translation.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I think hole changes have about 200-300 rounds in them with soft spikes. Midweek we go three days usually without a change. Competitions get a fresh change. A lot depends on your budget. An old cup mark should be invisible after 6 weeks and probably after 4 weeks in the growing season.

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