The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if

[Patrick_Mucci]

they succeed in eliminating the deduction for mortgage-interest, eliminate child tax credits and eliminate the deductions for employees to pay for their health insurance premium contributions.

At a time when clubs are in dire straits and in desperate need of members, if the above comes to fruition, clubs will be horrendously impacted, perhaps to the point of extinction.

Most discretionary income will disappear and members will drop out in droves, leaving the remaining members to shoulder operating expenses.  Clubs with significant debt will be the first to go since the reduced number of members won't be able to support the debt, with its rising per member annual cost.

The government's thirst for revenue knows no bounds  and will destroy the way of life for future generations, not to mention, golf/country clubs.

It will kill the housing market and doom younger generations to be apartment dwellers for the rest of their lives.

The budget deficit- debt will doom our future generation's ability to successfully engage in the pursuit of happiness.

I fear that my generation will be the last generation to enjoy a better lifestyle than the previous generation.

I don't see "A" future for golf/country clubs, let alone a bright future.

[Dan Herrmann]

Sounds like a flat tax, no?  

Honestly, losing those deductions wouldn't affect me at all.  I live in an inexpensive home, don't have kids, and (thank God) have a job with benefits.  

We "survived" the end of sales tax deductions, medical expense deduction (not the 7% AGI we see today) and a multitudeof other things.  The US has used the tax code for decades to do social engineering - this is nothing new.  

Remember when country club dues were deductible expenses and they took it away?  The same doom and gloom was predicted then..

PS - Interesting reading:  http://blogs.forbes.com/ashleaebeling/2010/10/22/irs-okays-big-tax-break-for-luxury-homeowners/

[Tim Martin]

Pat-Anyone that was on the ledge has now plummeted to their demise after reading the tenor of your post. I can only imagine that this will escalate into a political donnybrook of epic proportions. Things were getting king of boring in the DG I guess.

[Jim_Kennedy]

I'm moving to China. 

[A.G._Crockett]

Patrick,
The White House has little or nothing to do with this.  It is a bipartisan commission that Obama appointed to be sure, but it consists of  "members of Congress, evenly divided between Democrats and Republicans, along with a few former government officials, corporate CEOs and a labor executive."   Any such decisions would be made by Congress, not this or any other President, and Obama has not advocated ANY of the three things that you mention.

Besides all of that, elimination of the mortgage interest tax credit has been a special baby of the free market folks for a long time now; hard to hang that one on the Democrats, I think.

[Ted Cahill]

Sounds like a flat tax, no?  

Honestly, losing those deductions wouldn't affect me at all.  I live in an inexpensive home, don't have kids, and (thank God) have a job with benefits.  

We "survived" the end of sales tax deductions, medical expense deduction (not the 7% AGI we see today) and a multitudeof other things.  The US has used the tax code for decades to do social engineering - this is nothing new.  

Remember when country club dues were deductible expenses and they took it away?  The same doom and gloom was predicted then..

PS - Interesting reading:  http://blogs.forbes.com/ashleaebeling/2010/10/22/irs-okays-big-tax-break-for-luxury-homeowners/

Thanks Dan for adding this take.  Pat's post would appear to use GCA as a vehicle to criticize the White House.  God only knows there are plenty of outlets to vent about our President- it would be unfortunate if the DG is added to that list.  President Obamba appears to be a golf enthusiast!

[Carl Rogers]

I thought this type of thread on this web site was to be avoided.

[Jim Hoak]

I am hardly a defender of our current inept President, but I think your concern about losing a few of our many tax deductions portends the end of golf clubs as we know them.  I for one would love to see a system where the first $20,000-25,000 of income had no taxes--and everthing above that was taxed at 20-30%--with no deductions at all.  Tax accountments and lawyers might not like this--and it is politically impractical--, but it would be a major improvment over the current system of "tax expenditures" through all kinds of deductions.
And, in any case, I don't see golf or golf clubs, as the major victim of  the removal of deductions which have clogged our tax system.
Finally, I for one am looking forward to Tuesday to let our Presdient know that I as one voter am fed up--and ready for someone and something new.

[John Foley]

Finally, I for one am looking forward to Tuesday to let our Presdient know that I as one voter am fed up--and ready for someone and something new.

Isn't that how he got here??

[David_Tepper]

Pat -

PLEASE delete this thread. It serves no useful purpose to this chat board. There must be dozens of other websites better suited to a discussion of the political, social and economic impact of the U.S. tax code.

DT 

[cary lichtenstein]

they succeed in eliminating the deduction for mortgage-interest, eliminate child tax credits and eliminate the deductions for employees to pay for their health insurance premium contributions.

At a time when clubs are in dire straits and in desperate need of members, if the above comes to fruition, clubs will be horrendously impacted, perhaps to the point of extinction.

Most discretionary income will disappear and members will drop out in droves, leaving the remaining members to shoulder operating expenses.  Clubs with significant debt will be the first to go and the reduced number of members won't be able to support the

The government's thirst for revenue knows no bounds  and will destroy the way of life for future generations, not to mention, golf/country clubs.

It will kill the housing market and doom younger generations to be apartment dwellers for the rest of their lives.

The budget deficit- debt will doom our future generation's ability to successfully engage in the pursuit of happiness.

I fear that my generation will be the last generation to enjoy a better lifestyle than the previous generation.

I don't see "A" future for golf/country clubs, let alone a bright future.

I happen to agree

[David_Elvins]

Pat, please delte the thread.  

In the mean time........

At a time when clubs are in dire straits and in desperate need of members, if the above comes to fruition, clubs will be horrendously impacted, perhaps to the point of extinction.

 So what?  golf and country clubs are a luxury item. people can live without them and in many countries they do. Expensive country clubs should struggle in a time of limited economic prosperity.  Do you really think that the government should base their economic policies around the survival of country clubs?  

Most discretionary income will disappear and members will drop out in droves, leaving the remaining members to shoulder operating expenses.  Clubs with significant debt will be the first to go and the reduced number of members won't be able to support the

 Same as above.  If a golf club or country club has significant debt that cannot handle poor economic times that is their own problem.  All businesses should make allowances for changes in future economic coditions.  Those that don't should take responsibility for their own predicament.  

The government's thirst for revenue knows no bounds  and will destroy the way of life for future generations, not to mention, golf/country clubs.

What makes you think it is the government's thirst for revenue, and not the debt  accumulated over the last 40 years that will affect America's prosperity going forward?  

It will kill the housing market and doom younger generations to be apartment dwellers for the rest of their lives.

Can you provide more information on this?

The budget deficit- debt will doom our future generation's ability to successfully engage in the pursuit of happiness.

Agreed, but the level of private debt accumulated over your generation is as much of a factor as the public debt accumulated over your generation.  

[Jim Hoak]

I agree that this thread has no place here, and I apologize for weighing in.  It's just frustration boiling over . . . .

[Carl Johnson]

Great discussion topic!

[T] . . .hey succeed in eliminating the deduction for mortgage-interest, eliminate child tax credits and eliminate the deductions for employees to pay for their health insurance premium contributions.

If they succeed?  Then we'll have the welfare and tax subsidies go in a different direction, to different people.

At a time when clubs are in dire straits and in desperate need of members, if the above comes to fruition, clubs will be horrendously impacted, perhaps to the point of extinction.

But, better than the extinction of society, broadly speaking, as we've know it for the past half century.

Most discretionary income will disappear and members will drop out in droves, leaving the remaining members to shoulder operating expenses.  Clubs with significant debt will be the first to go and the reduced number of members won't be able to support the [old club?].

So what?  We'll have fewer private golf clubs?  So what?

The government's thirst for revenue knows no bounds  and will destroy the way of life for future generations, not to mention, golf/country clubs.

Remember that it's not the government.  It's the people, the majorities, who elect those who represent them.  In our republican democracy the government is us.

It will kill the housing market and doom younger generations to be apartment dwellers for the rest of their lives.

Somewhat better than living in caves and grass huts, however.

The budget deficit- debt will doom our future generation's ability to successfully engage in the pursuit of happiness.

Of course, the current deficit is a problem.  Prior governments, and by that I mean both the president (and his bureaucratic administrations) and the Congress, with the compliance of the judiciary, started a war (or wars, if you will) and decided that rather than have the current generations pay for them the better idea would be to borrow the money from China and leave it to future generations to pay it back.  Oh, and not to require that all of our able bodied men and women, regardless of social status, wealth, education, or whatever, participant in the human sacrafice of our soldiers (that is, no draft).

I fear that my generation will be the last generation to enjoy a better lifestyle than the previous generation.

Fifty-fifty you are right on this call (depending on how you define "lifestyle").

I don't see "A" future for golf/country clubs, let alone a bright future.

I am pesimistic, too. . . . and all of this is in great fun, is it not?

[Dan Herrmann]

What's Ms. O'Donnel's (R-DE) opinion? 

[Mike Sweeney]

It will kill the housing market and doom younger generations to be apartment dwellers for the rest of their lives

Some of us not living in Jersey are okay with this:

"While the housing market in much of the country remains mired in distress, the Manhattan market continued to strengthen over the summer, as the pace of sales and selling prices of larger, more expensive apartments picked up, according to market reports released Thursday."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704483004575524170714988184.html

Pat,

I had a 62 year old principal of a broker dealer today (Frank would know him) come to my office and say this is the greatest opportunity he has seen since the early 1970's when Hambecht & Quist took over the West Coast market and Alex Brown took over the East Coast market for venture capital/emerging growth companies.

Every market has a buyer and a seller. Washington will correct itself and you can blame me (independent) for the last two years. I voted for Obama and I will correct things in two weeks and in two years.

PS. I do agree with you about country clubs other than the elite 20%. I am a seller of country clubs.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Just to make this relevant, please read the preface in the 1976 edition of World Atlas of Golf.  HWH or Pat Ward Thomas lamented the exact same thing when the deductions were reduced for club write offs then. 

I think the general trend for clubs has been down, with a spike in high end clubs, and CCA and the like keeping moderate level clubs manageable via management.  But I believe the trend away from clubbiness (statistically, your experience may vary) has generally been down since 1930.  The 1990's were a bit of reversal of that trend and profits drive everything.

So, while I agree with Pat's general take, debt and tax wise, there are a lot of other factors driving the slow demise of the private club.

[Brent Hutto]

This forum has degenerated to the point where even Mucci can't keep it in his pants. I'm losing what hope I had for some sort of eventual return to civil discussion of Golf Course Architecture.

[Mike Sweeney]

This forum has degenerated to the point where even Mucci can't keep it in his pants. I'm losing what hope I had for some sort of eventual return to civil discussion of Golf Course Architecture.

Brent,

Ran has 200 more people to cut. If Pat needs to go, Ran has the keys.

[Adam Clayman]

Pat's post articulated the affects on golf courses. Therefore it's more germane than any off topic thread.

Pat's concerns are reasonable and he's likely right about a lot of his fears. Let's just hope he's wrong.

Government is out of control, and the people who should have been protecting the game, apparently squandered their opportunities to influence lawmakers effectively decades ago.

[Dan Herrmann]

Adam - you're absolutely right.  The topic is fine and related to GCA.

Focusing on architecture, I''m betting you'll see a continuation of the last 2 years.  Big growth in China (now) and India (later) and not much in North America or Europe.  I don't know enough about Down Under.

[Patrick_Mucci]

This thread is about golf course architecture and how courses we study and discuss will no longer be in existance (NLE)

If those three items lose their deductible status, especially mortgage-interest, you can say goodby to golf/country clubs and the courses associated with them.

My kids, grandkids and great grandkids will NEVER know the good times that my generation and my father's generation enjoyed.

Unfortunately, America is on the decline.  I don't like the thought of that, but, that's the reality of where we stand and will stand in the future.

The burdens of debt that have and continue to be piled up and the cost of unending, expanding social programs will be too much of a burden, but more importantly, just like situation where clubs have increasing expenses with shrinking memberships, the financial burdens on Americans will continue to increase while fewer and fewer Americans will be paying the billls/taxes.  It's an inverted financial pyramid, doomed to fail by the essence of its structure.

Clubs are currently facing the same problem, members are resigning, leaving a smaller membership to shoulder the increasing costs to sustain the club.  It can't last much longer, It's a death spiral.

As to those who say that this too will pass, it won't for a long, long time, if ever.
we've NEVER had such an anti-business environment in Washington as we do today.
Business, PROSPERITY and those who work hard to get ahead in life have been demonized.

I'm fairly familiar with club structures and the financial problems that clubs face today, and when you factor in the diminishment of the potential membership pool  today, and after those changes are enacted, it won't take 5 years for many, if not most clubs to cease operations.

Those of you engaged in class warfare are condeming your kids and grandkids to lead lives of mediocrity, never having the opportunity to aspire to achieve the American Dream through industriousness and smarts.

I've been lucky, I lived a good life in good times in America, but I doubt that my kids or grandkids will ever have the opportunity to belong to and enjoy golf at a golf/country club.

Take as many photos as you can of the great courses, I doubt many will be around in 10 years

[JNC Lyon]

Haven't writers stated in the past that the golf industry needs contraction?  

I sympathize heavily with Pat's political sentiment in the thread.  Lower government regulation is better, in general.  However, I don't see how the lack of growth in private clubs is a problem.  It is often said that the best time to start a business is in the worst of economic times, because if a business can survive then, it will survive always.  Couldn't the same be said of private clubs?

Furthermore, didn't the situation look much worse in the 1930s, when the standard of living in this country was much, much lower than it is now.  Economic downturn or not, Americans live more luxurious lifestyles than any people in history.  Whether that is the key to happiness is a different question.

By the way guys, this thread bears relation to GCA.  It's only the overtly political responses to the original question that have no place here.

[Mike Sweeney]

Adam - you're absolutely right.  The topic is fine and related to GCA.

Oh come on Dan.

It is two weeks from the election and Patrick is frustrated. It may have something to do with golf clubs, but it has nothing to do with golf course architecture.

I go with the Huckaby theory that this is how things roll around here, but lets stop the nonsense that this is architecture related. Patrick post on ND/college football threads too. The fact that he embraces the GCA double standard only increases his standing around here.

Ran,
I beg of you. PLEASE create an Off-Topic area.

Ran,  Don't do it.
It would only divert the focus away from GCA and diminish the quality of the threads/posts made, resulting in the dilution of the intent and appeal of the site

I, with many others, asked of it at the last 're-shape' and it never appeared. I honestly believe it would settle many of our issues.
If you have OFF TOPIC issues, go somewhere else to discuss them

I love our subject and I love the internet for giving me my VERY FIRST IN MY LIFE opportunity to discuss it on a worldwide basis, but I also firmly believe that, like a GREAT golf club there should be a place for eedjits like me to shoot the breeze outwith the real bones of our place.


Go shoot the breeze on another site devoted to the topic you wish to discuss.


I love GCA. Let it reflect what its members wish it to be.

You want the inmates to run the Asylum, I don't.
This site isn't about what the "guests" wish it to be, it's about what RAN wishes it to be and he doesn't wish to have off topic threads.
If you want to go off topic, go to another site that discusses that topic, rather than ruin a great GCA site.

or am I wrong?

You are dead wrong
FBD.

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Just to make this relevant, please read the preface in the 1976 edition of World Atlas of Golf.  HWH or Pat Ward Thomas lamented the exact same thing when the deductions were reduced for club write offs then. 

Jeff, that ONLY made clubs more expensive for companies.
They still paid the expense, they just didn't write it off.
This is different, this affects individuals, not companies with ample funds.

I think the general trend for clubs has been down, with a spike in high end clubs, and CCA and the like keeping moderate level clubs manageable via management.  But I believe the trend away from clubbiness (statistically, your experience may vary) has generally been down since 1930.  The 1990's were a bit of reversal of that trend and profits drive everything.

So, while I agree with Pat's general take, debt and tax wise, there are a lot of other factors driving the slow demise of the private club.
Jeff, the items I mentioned are more like the icing on the cake, or the straws that break the camel's back.

When you keep piling on burdens, increasing operating costs, with a decreasing population, you're clearly on the decline.