[JC Jones]

Therefore, if the only barrier to entry to a "private" club is money and the only barrier to entry for playing Bandon is money then pray tell, whats the difference?

As many wealthy blacks, Jews and Catholics around America can tell you, it isn't just money that can get you into many a private club.

John,

I agree with you and Kalen on the margins.  Generally, however, it is money.

[Bill Brightly]

Am I missing something? Bandon is a bargain for what you get, especially when you compare it to Pebble, Kiawah, TPC and other top of the market public venues.

.
Of course it is public. JC, since when did public mean cheap?

[JC Jones]

Am I missing something? Bandon is a bargain for what you get, especially when you compare it to Pebble, Kiawah, TPC and other top of the market public venues.

.
Of course it is public. JC, since when did public mean cheap?

I thought public meant accessible?

If I tell everyone and market myself as a 7 foot Thai ballet dancer, does that mean I am one?

[Tim Martin]

Am I missing something? Bandon is a bargain for what you get, especially when you compare it to Pebble, Kiawah, TPC and other top of the market public venues.

.
Of course it is public. JC, since when did public mean cheap?

I thought public meant accessible?

If I tell everyone and market myself as a 7 foot Thai ballet dancer, does that mean I am one?

You should have bowed out when Mike Sweeney gave you that Amex link layup.

[Dan Herrmann]

JC - I played nothing but municipal courses for many years.  While I was in school, my annual card fee was $60.  I was upset when it went to $75.

Fast forward 20 years of working my tail off, getting a good degree, etc. and I could afford Bandon, which I loved completely.

Different model, both quite public. 

Put it another way - I was vacationing in Oregon last year.  My wife was unemployed, so we couldn't afford Bandon.  But we stopped in just to enjoy the sense of place.

Got to the Bandon Trails clubhouse and spent time talking with the on-duty pro.  Great talk.  Finished by a smile from him and a reminder that the tee was open and a friendly urging from him to tee it up.

I could go across the street to a neighboring private club from where I play today.  They'd be very nice, but trust me, the tee is not open to me or any other non-member (which I completely respect).

Bandon's world-class GCA is open to all.  Plus, if you can't afford to play, you're welcome to walk the dunes trails to study the architecture from afar.  I praise my fellow native Buffalonian Mike K. for bringing his vision to the PUBLIC.

[JC Jones]

Am I missing something? Bandon is a bargain for what you get, especially when you compare it to Pebble, Kiawah, TPC and other top of the market public venues.

.
Of course it is public. JC, since when did public mean cheap?

I thought public meant accessible?

If I tell everyone and market myself as a 7 foot Thai ballet dancer, does that mean I am one?

You should have bowed out when Mike Sweeney gave you that Amex link layup.

Bowed out?  Of what?

I am learning quite a bit from the well thought out posts/responses on this thread. 

[Tim Bert]

By "making some noise" I meant that you know darn well that the courses at Bandon are public but that you were throwing your thoughts out there either just to be heard or jus to inspire some debate, so you are welcome for my original response.

The one thing I would note is that when someone rightfully mentioned that off-season the rates are quite affordable, you came back with something like "not when you factor in travel, room, etc" Well, the locals can still play and take advantage of the rates just like the locals can at any public course in any area. Throwing in lodging and travel is a terrible argument because now even a $5 muni in any state is unaffordable to anyone that needs to travel to get there that doesn't have the means to do so.

Separate question - What % of the people for which the trip is unaffordable could fund the trip by giving up their Starbucks budget or their cigarette budget or their dining out budget or any other number of places where people choose to direct their discretionary spend.  Not saying this is what is keeping everyone away as cost is the true issue for some but for just as many it is about choices and priorities.

[Kalen Braley]

Am I missing something? Bandon is a bargain for what you get, especially when you compare it to Pebble, Kiawah, TPC and other top of the market public venues.

.
Of course it is public. JC, since when did public mean cheap?

I thought public meant accessible?

If I tell everyone and market myself as a 7 foot Thai ballet dancer, does that mean I am one?

JC,

The problem with this is, "accessible" is such a relative term.  For most of the worlds population even a $25 course is not accessible because that would represent all or most of their monthly income...or worse.

Just because something is "public" does not mean it must be affordable to most...because as stated pretty much every golf course in the world is not affordable for the majority of the people that live in the world.

We truly are very fortunate to enjoy what we have access to even if we think $25 is "affordable"

[Brad Swanson]

"The fees are simply too ... damn ... high."

[JC Jones]

Tim,

A belated apology for the frivolousness of my curiosities.  I can assure you, however, that I have plenty of audiences elsewhere and am not seeking anything from this thread other than discussion.

As always, you bring up some great points that I think would be useful for discussion.  I think you are right in that I did not give the off-season and local rates thorough consideration prior to my response.  Perhaps this is where Bandon as a foil for my premise will fail.  I think some background will aid in clarification.

When I read Eric's post regarding walkable "public" golf courses and him citing Bandon as the "obvious" choice I wondered, what does "public" mean.  I wondered whether access to a large number of people is what as meant by "public" and if so, is Bandon really accessible to a large number of people.  Hence my original question.  Thanks to this thread, which you believe is of questionable motivation, another question has come up.  What is a "private" club and what are the general barriers to entry.  

I think that other than the marginal club, the general barrier to entry for a country club is money.  Particularly in this economic climate, when clubs are reducing initiations and closing doors, there seems to be fewer of the intangible barriers leaving only money as the obstacle for being a member of a "private" club.  If money is the only thing keeping one from being a member of a private club and money is the only thing making Bandon less accessible then is Bandon "private" or, are many "private" clubs actually (and pursuant to yours and others definitions) public?

Or, alternatively, and getting to Peter's post, is the difference not one of substance but one of symbol or form.  Meaning, is Bandon "public" because they say they are and private club X where anyone with the money can join "private" only because they say they are?  And effectively, are they the same.

Thanks for your posts and sorry for the distraction.

[JC Jones]

Separate question - What % of the people for which the trip is unaffordable could fund the trip by giving up their Starbucks budget or their cigarette budget or their dining out budget or any other number of places where people choose to direct their discretionary spend.  Not saying this is what is keeping everyone away as cost is the true issue for some but for just as many it is about choices and priorities.

I agree completely with the point you are making with this question.  For those who have the luxury of discretionary spending, often times some reevaluation of (spending) priorities could open some doors once thought locked.

[Tim Bert]

For the record, "questionable motivation" is your choice of words, not mine. 

I think money is but one aspect of the total equation. The new economy hasn't dictated that every club open their doors for the sake of money.  Many of them perhaps, but I think there remain places where you can't simply show up with a pile of cash and expect to be granted a membership.  I also remain unconvinced that money is a barrier for the majority of public golfers with a strong desire to play Bandon. Perhaps when you combine travel as I mentioned, but that becomes the location that is inaccessible not the cost of the course. 

If you do want to focus solely on the monetary aspect then the distinction I would make is pay-as-you-go as opposed to some type of financial commitment beyond the cost of one round. If there are "private" clubs with no up front or monthly financial commitment then I guess I would accept calling them "public." I believe that most, if not all, private clubs, even in the new economy, continue to require a commitment larger than one round for anyone that is really a "member.". So, in my opinion, it is not the cost of a round of golf, as much as the nature of the commitment.

I can't believe I am still debating this point when I have to catch a flight tomorrow morning for Game 6. I am glad that Citizens Bank Ballpark remains open to the public, though given the cost of tickets and the fact that every game is a sellout it is arguably more private than Bandon Dunes.

[Kris Shreiner]

"Privileged Public" has always been the term that seems appropriate when speaking of the higher end daily fee offerings. Sure, you can bargain away in the Winter at Bandon, but it's no cheap date in high season. The other pricey public tracks like Pebble, Kiawah, TOC, etc., may be more extortionate, but the average duffer generally isn't saving his pennies for the lifetime trip to these locales.

[Tom_Doak]

The average duffer doesn't save his pennies to go play somewhere special.  He spends them on his golf cart once a week.

[Jim_Kennedy]

"Bandon Dunes Golf Resort", "Pinehurst Resort", "Pebble Beach Resorts", "Kiawah Island Golf Resort" ....are how these places market themselves and their very nature requires them to be publically accessible, who else you gonna get? 

Public golf courses are usually built in areas where there is enough of a public to support them  (my definition). There isn't a course on the list above that would be self sufficient in today's world if it relied on its local market to provide for it. Pebble and Pinehurst pulled it off pre '80s, but their green fees were still in the $25.00 range.

Blurring the distinction between resorts and publics is unhealthy for the publics, it has the effect of making the lower priced public product seem inferior.

[JC Jones]

Very interesting point, Jim.  So there are, perhaps, 3 classes here: Private, Resort and Public. 

I also like Kris Shreiner's idea: Privileged Public. 

These are the fruits of narcissism!!

[Jud_T]

JC,

Bandon is $75 to play in the winter ($100 for non-resort guest) with a $40 replay rate.  Any hardcore golfer can afford that.  This dog won't hunt...And fyi-the kiss of death-I'm betting on State today....

[Kris Shreiner]

Tom,
You are spot on. That's my point. Public golf has many faces and the destination facilities, by there very nature, are a stretch for many "public" golfing folks. It is not a criticism, just a fact of life. I'm from modest means, but great golf is high on my priority list of what I enjoy most. Many others also will go to greater lengths than most to make that special trip they couldn't normally afford.

I am grateful to those that have invested in providing this quality golf option for ALL to have an opportunity to play. Your efforts at Common Ground, and the current junior gollf project you have generously assisted, on are perfect examples of the range of "public" golf that even crafty, artisan designers such as yourself can provide to all levels of golf. Thanks!  

[Jim_Kennedy]

Bandon is a resort, hence the non-resort guest fee.

If you want to lump it into the public category, so be it, but it's like calling a peacock a chicken. Same species, different genus.

[JC Jones]

JC,

Bandon is $75 to play in the winter ($100 for non-resort guest) with a $40 replay rate.  Any hardcore golfer can afford that.  This dog won't hunt...And fyi-the kiss of death-I'm betting on State today....

The only thing more of a failure than your football program is your ability to make a point.

[Jud_T]

I get it, it's a Resort Course.  But it's not so black and white all the time...Jim, how would you categorize Cog Hill #4?  It's $155 to play yet it's in a large metro area and part of one of the best public facilities in the country with several other reasonable options.  Any bartender can save one good night's tips, hop in the beater and be playing one of the best courses in the world (Pac Dunes) within a day or two for $100 and sleep in the back seat.  Hardly "country-club set" stuff.

[Matt_Ward]

Resort play is different than your basic muni or low level place -- hard to put a green fee limit -- but any place that is triple digits to play at peak time is catering to a certain deep pocket audience.

When you have place like Common Ground, Black Mesa or Wine Valley, to name just three, you are speaking about quality public golf offerings that won't break the bank for most people.

Bandon certainly provides a major price break during the winter months but it's still a resort meant for the core golfer who wants to play there. In strictest terms -- Pebble Beach is public but the price tag effectively limits that word to lower case meaning.

[William_G]

Public (resort, muni, semi-private....) or Private.

Thanks

[Jim Adkisson]

As the Resort will be hosting the 2011 USGA Public Links Championship, I would suggest that the governing body of golf in North America has deemed the resort to be "public" golf.

It's still a resort in my mind...only 28 days until my first OM tee time!

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jud,
I don’t think it’s black and white either, but Cog Hill isn’t a resort, it can sustain itself on local play, and it does offer three affordable (1/3 the cost) alternatives to the Dubsdread course.  

I don't think there is any question that Bandon or the other resorts named are in the public arena, but distinctions are important. It's sort of misleading to read a list that declares any of these resort courses as the "Best Public" course in a given state.    

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