[JC Jones]

JC - I know you are just making some noise but public means John Doe can slap the money on the counter and play the course.  It doesnt mean he can afford it but that is a distinction of expensive vs affordable, not public vs private.

A lot of things are expensive in life - a trip to Disney World, a ski vacation, taking your family to a sporting event, etc.

Anyone can save up their pennies and go play at Bandon if they save long enough and that's how they choose to spend their money.  The same can't be said at Augusta without an invitation.  But you knew that already.

Edit: I probably shouldn't have gone this path as I truly don't want to detract from Eric's thread. If you want to debate this then let's take it to another thread or private messages - or I can delete my comments.

Tim,

What do you mean by "making some noise"?

I think you make some good points above but I have to, respectfully, disagree.  Under your definition above, so long as John Doe has an eye on the charity outing offerings, he can slap money down and play just about any "private" club in the country.  Are Oakmont, Merion, Winged Foot, Shinnecock, Seminole, etc., etc. all "public" because they host multiple charity outings per year where non-members who are willing to pay the money can go and play the course? 

I think it is important to look at not only what Bandon is in name (public) but also, what Bandon effectively is (private).  Except, perhaps, at the margins, the "retail" golfer that can go to Bandon is not John Doe nor is it your basic "public" golfer. 

"Public" has multiple definitions including:

1.  exposed to general view - certainly Bandon is not exposed to the general population of golfers due to its cost

2.  devoted to the general or national welfare - one could argue that only a municipal golf course would fit this definition

3.  accessible to or shared by ALL members of the community - this is what I generally understand to be a "public" golf course.  Due to it's prohibitive cost, Bandon is certainly not shared by many, a lot or most, let alone ALL members of the community.


I love Bandon Dunes Golf Resort and reflect often on my trip out there 6 years ago (almost to the day).  I don't, however, think it is widely accessible enough to be considered "public."  Especially since most of its clientele are members of private country clubs.

Thoughts?

[George Freeman]

JC,

I call bullshit (excuse my language).  I can almost smell the lawyer in you from here! 

You cannot call Oakmont (or insert any other truly private course) a "public" venue b/c once or twice a year you can get on there without an invite from a member, that is of course, after dropping $700-800.

Anyone can tee it up at Bandon any day of the year, barring course closure for weather, holidays, etc.  Is its cost and location prohibitive?  Of course, but that has zero effect on its policies.

That is unless you want to get into the whole "if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it really make a sound?" argument.

To use a commonly coined GCA.com term, surely you jest.

Cheers mate.

[Dan Herrmann]

Bandon certainly is public.  I can tell you that my playing partners there (grouped by the starter) were mostly public golfers.

JC - What was the point of your post?

[Eric Smith]

JC,

In honor of the return of the provocateur extraordinaire JakaB, I'll ask you this: Can I call them up and get a tee time with my American Express?

Yes?

Then it's a public golf option.  There's no need to try to break it down any further.

[Tim Martin]

JC,

I call bullshit (excuse my language).  I can almost smell the lawyer in you from here! 

You cannot call Oakmont (or insert any other truly private course) a "public" venue b/c once or twice a year you can get on there without an invite from a member, that is of course, after dropping $700-800.

Anyone can tee it up at Bandon any day of the year, barring course closure for weather, holidays, etc.  Is its cost and location prohibitive?  Of course, but that has zero effect on its policies.

That is unless you want to get into the whole "if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it really make a sound?" argument.

To use a commonly coined GCA.com term, surely you jest.

Cheers mate.

JC- George hit it out of the park with his post. Your logic is DOA. What if I win a foursome to Merion in a high school raffle? Does that mean it really isn`t private? That dog won`t hunt.

[JC Jones]

You cannot call Oakmont (or insert any other truly private course) a "public" venue b/c once or twice a year you can get on there without an invite from a member, that is of course, after dropping $700-800.

I agree, completely.

Anyone can tee it up at Bandon any day of the year, barring course closure for weather, holidays, etc.  Is its cost and location prohibitive?  Of course, but that has zero effect on its policies.

That is unless you want to get into the whole "if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it really make a sound?" argument.

To use a commonly coined GCA.com term, surely you jest.

Cheers mate.

I disagree.  Not anyone can tee it up at Bandon.  In fact, generally it is the country club set that CAN tee it up at Bandon.


Are you still mad because I have to carry you every year at Kingsley?

[JC Jones]

Bandon certainly is public.  I can tell you that my playing partners there (grouped by the starter) were mostly public golfers.

JC - What was the point of your post?

To engage in frank commentary on a golf architecture related matter.

[JC Jones]

JC,

I call bullshit (excuse my language).  I can almost smell the lawyer in you from here! 

You cannot call Oakmont (or insert any other truly private course) a "public" venue b/c once or twice a year you can get on there without an invite from a member, that is of course, after dropping $700-800.

Anyone can tee it up at Bandon any day of the year, barring course closure for weather, holidays, etc.  Is its cost and location prohibitive?  Of course, but that has zero effect on its policies.

That is unless you want to get into the whole "if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it really make a sound?" argument.

To use a commonly coined GCA.com term, surely you jest.

Cheers mate.

JC- George hit it out of the park with his post. Your logic is DOA. What if I win a foursome to Merion in a high school raffle? Does that mean it really isn`t private? That dog won`t hunt.

That wasn't my argument.

[JC Jones]

JC,

In honor of the return of the provocateur extraordinaire JakaB, I'll ask you this: Can I call them up and get a tee time with my American Express?

Yes?

Then it's a public golf option.  There's no need to try to break it down any further.

We don't all roll like you do, mattress man. 

[Peter Pallotta]

JC - I think you miss an important aspect/element, i.e. the symbolic. A best-of-class experience was created in the name of public-access golf. There is a message there, obscured by the business model and the choice of architects, and the rankings and the remoteness, but there nonetheless. I'll likely never get to Bandon, but as a symbol it's as close as I'll ever get to St. Andrews/TOC, the original and still brightest example of top-quality golf as a communal experience, a game to be played on the village green as it were, on common ground.  Sure, in practice golf then and now is certainly not the most open and welcoming of sports, in many ways and for many reasons; but in theory, at the level of the symbolic, I'm happy that it still strives to be in places like Bandon.

Peter    

[JC Jones]

JC - I think you miss you an important aspect/element, i.e. the symbolic. A best-of-class experience was created in the name of public-access golf. There is a message there, obscured by the business model and the choice of architects, and the rankings and the remoteness, but there nonetheless. I'll likely never get to Bandon, but as a symbol it's as close as I'll ever get to St. Andrews/TOC, the original and still brightest example of top-quality golf as a communal experience, a game to be played on the village green as it were, on common ground.  Sure, in practice golf then and now is certainly not the most open and welcoming of sports, in many ways and for many reasons; but in theory, at the level of the symbolic, I'm happy that it still strives to be in places like Bandon.

Peter    

Precisely my pineappley frothy friend.  Should we care more about the symbolic or the "form" when we judge Bandon or should we care about the substance of what it actually or effectively is?

You have, as always, recognized the heart of the issue and responded appropriately.

[Eric Smith]

I don't get it?

I've never been.

You have.

You carry a Pacific Dunes golf bag!!

JC Jones you better watch your speed...

[Mike Sweeney]

JC,

In honor of the return of the provocateur extraordinaire JakaB, I'll ask you this: Can I call them up and get a tee time with my American Express?

Yes?

Then it's a public golf option.  There's no need to try to break it down any further.

http://golf.areyouacardmember.com/playgolf

[JC Jones]

I don't get it?

I've never been.

You have.

You carry a Pacific Dunes golf bag!!

JC Jones you better watch your speed...

Call up the pro shop, they'll sell you one too.

I don't need to watch my speed so long as there are country lawyers who eat grits with the judge and sheriff that are willing to accept payment

[JC Jones]

JC,

In honor of the return of the provocateur extraordinaire JakaB, I'll ask you this: Can I call them up and get a tee time with my American Express?

Yes?

Then it's a public golf option.  There's no need to try to break it down any further.

http://golf.areyouacardmember.com/playgolf

Just when I thought you couldn't get any worse, you do something like this and TOTALLY REDEEM YOURSELF.

[Kalen Braley]

This is a controversial topic, but I have to vote "public" as well.

In my mind I equate it with buying a car.  I can either choose a hyundai or a rolls royce based on what I can afford.  The fact that there is a massive price differential has no bearing on the nature of the access to the car....it only means less people can afford the more expensive one.

In the case of Bandon, I think many associate it with private because they associate forking over a lot of cash to play golf with belonging to a private club...but it just isn't so.

[Ted Cahill]

I have played Bandon's courses for 75 bucks in the offseason and 40! dollar replay!  To play Pacific Dunes for 40 dollars is the greatest golf value anywhere. I have never played a private course, yet I have teed it up dozens of times at Bandon. I find one of the best qualities of the resort is that it doesn't cater to the rich. The accommodations, atmosphere and general austerity of the resort, in fact, frown upon flashiness and/ or flaunting of wealth and status.

[Peter Pallotta]

Like with most things, JC - those who have it 'spend' it on the literal, while those who don't 'dream' of it on the symbolic.

Peter  

[Jim_Kennedy]

Irrespective of airfare, hotels, car rentals, etc., the cost to play the top 50 public access courses when they're in their best condition, i.e. turf and weather, would set you back $11,582.00, or $231.64 a pop.

Hope the free seminar on affordable golf is well attended.  

[JC Jones]

This is a controversial topic, but I have to vote "public" as well.

In my mind I equate it with buying a car.  I can either choose a hyundai or a rolls royce based on what I can afford.  The fact that there is a massive price differential has no bearing on the nature of the access to the car....it only means less people can afford the more expensive one.

In the case of Bandon, I think many associate it with private because they associate forking over a lot of cash to play golf with belonging to a private club...but it just isn't so.

Good analogy, Kalen.  I like the notion of access and money.  Save for a small percentage of "private" clubs, the usual and general barrier to entry is money.  This is particularly so in this economic climate.

Therefore, if the only barrier to entry to a "private" club is money and the only barrier to entry for playing Bandon is money then pray tell, whats the difference?

[JC Jones]

Irrespective of airfare, hotels, car rentals, etc., the cost to play the top 50 public access courses when they're in their best condition, i.e. turf and weather, would set you back $11,582.00, or $231.64 a pop.

Hope the free seminar on affordable golf is well attended.  

I'll be there.

[JohnV]

I disagree.  Not anyone can tee it up at Bandon.  In fact, generally it is the country club set that CAN tee it up at Bandon.

Given that many people are out of work and can't afford to play golf at all, there are no public courses by your definition.  Only a free course would be public.

[Kalen Braley]

This is a controversial topic, but I have to vote "public" as well.

In my mind I equate it with buying a car.  I can either choose a hyundai or a rolls royce based on what I can afford.  The fact that there is a massive price differential has no bearing on the nature of the access to the car....it only means less people can afford the more expensive one.

In the case of Bandon, I think many associate it with private because they associate forking over a lot of cash to play golf with belonging to a private club...but it just isn't so.

Good analogy, Kalen.  I like the notion of access and money.  Save for a small percentage of "private" clubs, the usual and general barrier to entry is money.  This is particularly so in this economic climate.

Therefore, if the only barrier to entry to a "private" club is money and the only barrier to entry for playing Bandon is money then pray tell, whats the difference?

JC,

I would certainly agree that with most private courses, the money is the biggest barrier to entry...but it doesn't mean its the only barrier.  For many courses there is also potentially sponsorship, openings, sex, ethnicity, location, etc. and other "qualifiers" that can stand in the way.

With public courses, money is the only barrier.

[JohnV]

Therefore, if the only barrier to entry to a "private" club is money and the only barrier to entry for playing Bandon is money then pray tell, whats the difference?

As many wealthy blacks, Jews and Catholics around America can tell you, it isn't just money that can get you into many a private club.

[JC Jones]

I disagree.  Not anyone can tee it up at Bandon.  In fact, generally it is the country club set that CAN tee it up at Bandon.

Given that many people are out of work and can't afford to play golf at all, there are no public courses by your definition.  Only a free course would be public.

Well, municipal courses would certainly fit under one of the 3 definitions I provided.

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