Cart Paths at Palmetto Golf Club... What Surface Would You Use?

[Michael Whitaker]

I received an email recently from Rhett Baker, the Head Superintendent at Palmetto Golf Club requesting some GCA.com help with information on cart paths.

Here is the text of Rhett's email:

If you recall from playing here last fall, our course is entirely void of any paved or hard surfaced cart paths. They are all dirt. Most of our membership takes great pride in the fact that we have not succumbed to asphalt and believe that the dirt paths add to the character of the course. I have to agree with this feeling, that is, until it rains. Any amount of rainfall that comes with some velocity, whether its 1/2 inch or more, turns these things into a giant mess. We just have too much slope in certain areas and the water really gathers a lot of speed and causes quite the erosion problem. I have proposed concrete paths on a couple of the steep slopes that run through the woods and are generally not visible while playing the course, but understandably, the membership is wary of this kind of move. I was wondering if you would be able to post a question on GCA inquiring about any natural cart path material or design that may work as an alternative to concrete or asphalt, and could be applied to some fairly steep terrain? No chance of getting rid of carts here. Feel free to mention our course as the basis for this question.


What say you guys? Any ideas on how Rhett could best solve his problem?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Michael,
Here are a couple of ideas for you:

http://www.invisiblestructures.com/brochures/golf_brochure.pdf

http://www.prestogeo.com/geoblock_porous_pavement

[Bruce Wellmon]

Michael,
          Granted I have not been to Palmetto since the recent "redo."
           But, then, even the road to the course and parking lot if I recall were sand/dirt.
            

[Melvyn Morrow]

Quick Sand sound about right 

Melvyn

[Mac Plumart]

Now that was funny, Melvyn!

[Ben Sims]

There's a few places at Wolf Point where Don Mahaffey has used oyster shells to reinforce high traffic areas.

Don, what say you regarding this practice.  Could it work on a slope?  Cost effectiveness?  Does it blend in well in your opinion?

[Tim Bert]

I don't know if it is practical for the slopes you reference or from a drainage perspective, but from a purely aesthetic point of view I prefer the idea of an off-white or grey gravel or crushed stone.

That's assuming that you can't get him to change his opinion on the carts!

Do the existing dirt paths run the entire distance of every hole, or are they just starting and stopping paths that run into the fairway?

[Michael Whitaker]

I don't know if it is practical for the slopes you reference or from a drainage perspective, but from a purely aesthetic point of view I prefer the idea of an off-white or grey gravel or crushed stone.

That's assuming that you can't get him to change his opinion on the carts!

Do the existing dirt paths run the entire distance of every hole, or are they just starting and stopping paths that run into the fairway?

Tim - They start and stop.

[Michael Whitaker]

Michael,
          Granted I have not been to Palmetto since the recent "redo."
           But, then, even the road to the course and parking lot if I recall were sand/dirt.
            

Nope. It's paved.

[Michael Whitaker]

Michael,
Here are a couple of ideas for you:

http://www.invisiblestructures.com/brochures/golf_brochure.pdf

http://www.prestogeo.com/geoblock_porous_pavement

Jim - These look promising. Thank you!!!

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,
An older but similar system is in use on a turfed overflow parking lot at a mall in Farmington Ct., they always have grass growing on it. Years ago we used to have surface grids on a few paths that allowed the grass to grow up between the spaces. They worked well, but they were a bit unsightly.
The permeable material for parking areas, sidewalks, etc., also looks interesting.

[Mike_Young]

try pavers..you can always remove if a problem and fill then replace....they can be installed without major machinery and they can be made to integrate nicely....

[Bill_McBride]

try pavers..you can always remove if a problem and fill then replace....they can be installed without major machinery and they can be made to integrate nicely....

In a season with pavers, grass will grow through the voids and you'll hardly be able to tell there's concrete involved.

[Don_Mahaffey]

There's a few places at Wolf Point where Don Mahaffey has used oyster shells to reinforce high traffic areas.

Don, what say you regarding this practice.  Could it work on a slope?  Cost effectiveness?  Does it blend in well in your opinion?

Ben,
I liked the oyster shells because many of the real old ranch roads in this area are shell roads.
As you know I'm a big believer in using local materials to build golf courses and the use of shells for a path surface in our area fits in with that idea. I do believe they would work great if they are available and cheap. Shells cost us $2 a yard so the paths were built very inexpensively.

[Bill_McBride]

There's a few places at Wolf Point where Don Mahaffey has used oyster shells to reinforce high traffic areas.

Don, what say you regarding this practice.  Could it work on a slope?  Cost effectiveness?  Does it blend in well in your opinion?

Ben,
I liked the oyster shells because many of the real old ranch roads in this area are shell roads.
As you know I'm a big believer in using local materials to build golf courses and the use of shells for a path surface in our area fits in with that idea. I do believe they would work great if they are available and cheap. Shells cost us $2 a yard so the paths were built very inexpensively.

There were paths at Wolf Point?

[Mike McGuire]

I don't have any experience with this product but it sounds promising.


PolyPavement solidifies earth to make Natural Soil Pavement.
It allows you to showcase Nature’s Beauty, not hide it.

Unlike soil stabilizers that hold down dust and dirt marginally,
PolyPavement provides a solid pavement wear surface.
PolyPavement converts the earth itself into a solid pavement,
allowing the use of the complete palette of Nature’s earth tones, colors and hues.

http://www.polypavement.com/

[Michael Whitaker]

Thank you all for your suggestions. I have passed this info to Rhett and he is most appreciative!

[Jim_Kennedy]

MW,
So if any of the products work will the club go back to these? 


Palmetto Golf Links -sometime between 1880 -1920

[john_stiles]

The old sand greens.......

[Matt Day]

Michael,
Here are a couple of ideas for you:

http://www.invisiblestructures.com/brochures/golf_brochure.pdf

http://www.prestogeo.com/geoblock_porous_pavement

Jim - These look promising. Thank you!!!

Michael
We have been using a similar product to the geo blocks in Australia  and have had great results in areas with high wear. Its easy to see areas next to tees for example where the product is as the wear is clearly significantly less than areas without the blocks

[Jim Nugent]

Can anyone explain the economics of cart paths?  I'm interested in knowing what they cost, maintenance, how much wear and tear on the course they save and the dollars and sense of that as well. 

Thanks...

[Dunlop_White]

What did Palmetto end up using on their trails since the subject was addressed in 2010? What were the trails at Erin Hills and Royal Birkdale made out of as we viewed these majors this year??  They look like dirt trails, but they are not dirt -- not pavement either. The edges are unusually well-defined, so it can't be gravel or anything loose. It must be soil stabilizer? It must be a product like poly pavement linked above. Does anyone have any info. on this? Thanks.

http://www.polypavement.com

[jeffwarne]

What did Palmetto end up using on their trails since the subject was addressed in 2010? What were the trails at Erin Hills and Royal Birkdale made out of as we viewed these majors this year??  They look like dirt trails, but they are not dirt -- not pavement either. The edges are unusually well-defined, so it can't be gravel or anything loose. It must be soil stabilizer? It must be a product like poly pavement linked above. Does anyone have any info. on this? Thanks.

http://www.polypavement.com

Not sure what's new and what's not but there are a couple of concrete paths in the woods that would make I-95 proud-particularly 11 well in the woods(scene of Kevin Kisner's suspension inducing Callaway cart race) and 6 tee(in the woods again).
Whatever the case, I don't find any of them all that visually offensive and understand the erosion concerns.


Rhett is no longer there as he has moved to the new Hanse project in south Georgia (Ohoopee)

[Dave Doxey]

  Run a paved path down the center of each fairway.

 
Gives an aiming target
Rewards a straight drive with a big distance bounce
Eliminates cart path bounces into hazards
Minimizes walks and speed play on cart-path-only days

 
Please note -   

[Jeff_Brauer]

Have had a few requests from environmentally sensitive clients to use one of the porous pavements, including two this year.  When told the cost is twice asphalt or concrete, they aren't quite that much of an environmentalist.......


I have seen a few architects try to use gravel.  If you use it on slopes, you really, really, need to control drainage around the paths on slopes and low points with basins, etc.  Drainage alone probably makes the cost close to asphalt, although, truth be told, you should have a lot of drainage around concrete paths as well.  On clay soils, not sure packed gravel drains enough water through, and it starts running on the clay base, or the surface, leading to wash outs.


However, on the landscape architecture side of things, porous pavement is becoming all the rage as people focus on reducing run off in urban situations.