[Pete_Pittock]

For those who cannot attend the Affordable Symposium but have some out of the box ideas which would make Ron Whitten happier, what are your ideas, real or theoretical.
Here's mine:  Theoretrically, I'm going to build a 6500 yd course, but only have 15 holes. This will save money on construction because there are three fewer greens. This will save maintenance costs for the same reason. This will save time for playing a round of golf because the biggest time wasters are teeing off and putting. This would also appeal to longer players because the average hole length is longer. Par 3s would probably be limited to two holes as more than that would put excessive length on the remaining holes.
A 7200 yd 18 hole course averages 400 yds per hole. This course will average 430 yds per hole.

Comments

[Matt Swanson]

While it might not appeal to many (those interested in posting 18 hole scores, etc.), I think it makes a lot of sense.  Golf started without 18 hole courses, and the number is rather arbitrary.  I'd rather play 15 holes without having their quality sacrificed for space constraints, than 18 somewhat compromised ones.  Is it indeed land constraints that are limiting your yardage?

It'll be interesting to hear what others have to say.  I'm guessing this crowd would be more accepting of this approach than the general population.   

Best of luck!

[Pete_Pittock]

Matt,
The score should still be postable assuming the course is rated by the state association.

Perhaps I should have said "theoretically".

[Matt Swanson]

True, Pete -- more than the actual posting, I guess I meant those who talk, think, etc. in 18 hole golf scores.     

[Jason Goss]

I have thought of doing a 12 hole course comprised of four sets of three holes that could be set up to have 9 holes open everyday and the remaining three closed for maintenance.  There would be no maintenance being performed on the 9 open holes with the exception of greens mowing, bunker raking, and cup changing on the days those 9 holes were open.  Those tasks could easily be performed by the staff before the first group of the day.   All other maintenance can take place when each set of three holes is closed for the day.  Routing will be tricky to make the routing work in multiple configurations but I think it could be done.  This would allow for the most intensive maintenance to be performed on each hole every four days and without having to stop for play or getting in the way of play. 

[Mac Plumart]

Jason...I love that idea!  That is thinking outside the box.  I think it could work quite well if done properly. 

[Ken Moum]

Theoretrically, I'm going to build a 6500 yd course, but only have 15 holes. This will save money on construction because there are three fewer greens. This will save maintenance costs for the same reason. This will save time for playing a round of golf because the biggest time wasters are teeing off and putting. This would also appeal to longer players because the average hole length is longer. Par 3s would probably be limited to two holes as more than that would put excessive length on the remaining holes.
A 7200 yd 18 hole course averages 400 yds per hole. This course will average 430 yds per hole.

Comments

I'm not sure I can make it fit the affordability symposium, but I was talking to my club's pro this week about our weekly Wed. night men's events. He was looking to squeeze in a few more before Daylight Savings Time is gone, and suggested doing 6-hole events.

At our course that's easy because, as George Thomas suggested, the third and fifteenth greens are close to the clubhouse.

So I was thinking that we could easily set up the courses with three six-hole loops (3-9, 10-15 and 16-18+1-3)

This would offer all kinds of time- and money-saving options.  Golfers could play 12-hole rounds, and you could use Jason's idea to conduct maintenance while play was going on.  Managing tee times might be a problem, but courses deal with three nines all the time, so I can't see it being a big deal.

K

[Mike Nuzzo]

Are you building a 6500 yard 15 hole course vs. a 5500 yard 15 hole course to appeal to the better player?
The better player isn't going to 1 15 hole course.

If I'm playing a 15 hole course it better be 5000 yards max and easy as hell to walk.

What happens to the short par 4s?

[Pete_Pittock]

Mike,
     No, I'm trying to save money in construction and maintenance costs and cut the tiime it takes to play a course. By dropping from 18 to 15 holes I might be able to cut 25-30 minutes, which might make the course more attractive. Do architects have to make choices in how to utilize the available acreage and makes some sacrifice to complete a coursw which has an arbitrary 18 holes? Would they come up with a different routing if it was okay to come up with a 15, 16 or 17 hole course if that is the best use of the land for golfing? What compromises must be made to fit a regulation course into a substandard acreage. To me this would have the feel of a full course shot values which may be missing from an executive course setup.
     15 isn't any more arbitrary to me than is 18. 18/6500 just to pencil things out:
     Par 3s      2,  totaling about 350 yds.
     Short 4s   2,  totaling about 600 yds. (950)
     4s           7,  totaling about 2900 yds (410 Av) (3850)
     5s           3,  totaling about 1650 yds (550 Av) (5500)
     6s           1,  about 900 yards, total course length 6400
which plays to a par 63. I could also see tees around 5800 and 5000.

How much different would Wolf Creek have turned out if your client had said that a 12 or 15 hole course would have been okay?

Jason,
Nice idea, I'd think of it a four three hole wedges with the facilities at the junction point. But aren't you increasing acquistion, construction and maintenance costs by 25%?

[Jason Goss]

"Jason,
Nice idea, I'd think of it a four three hole wedges with the facilities at the junction point. But aren't you increasing acquisition, construction and maintenance costs by 25%?"

Increased costs as compared to a 9 hole course, but a reduction of costs as compared to an 18 hole course.  As well as the time savings of playing only 9 holes.  The player would have the option to go around twice if they wanted to play 18.  The course routing would be in constant rotation so you would be playing a different course every time out!  

[Mike Nuzzo]

Pete
I would play your course.
Especially if it took 2 hours.
To do so your course would need to be shorter - 4500-5500.
It seems you are trying to compete with the 18 hole course by making it 6500.

You can save money by superintendent selection, greens construction, less irrigation (fairway), schedule, no cart paths and picking a site that surface drains.

I started out at Wolf Point offering to build any number of holes my client wanted - from 2-18.
We didn't have space limitations.
It would have come out just as good hole per hole, but with fewer holes.

[Jason Topp]

1.  Lower costs associated with money losing aspects of the operation - F&B and big clubhouses.  The courses in the Brainerd, MN area have terrific clubhouses that are basically lake cabins.  The atmosphere is terrific and the costs for upkeep must be relatively low.  By contrast I pay $175 per month for a clubhouse where the only areas I use regularly are the pro shop, the 19th hole and my locker.

2.  Lower maintenence costs.  I think the biggest opportunity for making golf more affordable lies in maintenence.  Our budget is a million per year (if one includes equipment replacement cost).  I am guessing we do 20,000 rounds at most.  That is $50 per round for maintenence.  

• Kington seemed to be maintained by sheep tee to green. I recall wondering if the same approach could be used at some US locations
• Don Mahaffey has some terrific ideas for lowering maintenence costs that he put into practice at Wolf Point (mainly using newer gang mowers rather than walk behind mowers).  
• I would change the now-mow idea to "minimally maintained areas" that are mowed low enough to allow for one to find the ball but nothing else is done.  Such an approach reduces construction costs by eliminating irrigation areas and lowers maintenence costs.  Hurzdan proposed this approach long ago.
• Stop irrigating rough
• Reduce the number of bunkers and design them so they can be maintained by machines

Of course the issue with these proposals is whether they translate into a better business result for the owner.

[George Pazin]

This is a question without an easy answer. It reminds me a bit of my decision to purchase my automated printing machine - once I made the decision to go for it, it didn't make sense to skimp on what I bought.

Land near any metro area is going to be expensive. Buying less to put in fewer holes would likely end up being penny-wise pound foolish, if I had to guess (and it just that, a guess). But I like the idea, don't get me wrong.

Having less Augusta-like maintenance practices would probably be a big saver, but has anyone ever costed out what maintenance costs are on a per golfer, per round basis? I'd be curious to see some numbers if anyone has them.

[Carl Johnson]

Affordable idea: What about having as many double greens as possible?  Just askin'.

[Adrian_Stiff]

For those who cannot attend the Affordable Symposium but have some out of the box ideas which would make Ron Whitten happier, what are your ideas, real or theoretical.
Here's mine:  Theoretrically, I'm going to build a 6500 yd course, but only have 15 holes. This will save money on construction because there are three fewer greens. This will save maintenance costs for the same reason. This will save time for playing a round of golf because the biggest time wasters are teeing off and putting. This would also appeal to longer players because the average hole length is longer. Par 3s would probably be limited to two holes as more than that would put excessive length on the remaining holes.
A 7200 yd 18 hole course averages 400 yds per hole. This course will average 430 yds per hole.

Comments

Terrible idea Peter commercially. 18 is the number, I have no reason to say why 15, 16 or 17 are not but a 'round' is 18. Far better on smaler parcels to get 18 holes in, if that means 6, 7 or 8 par 3s, it just has a lower par.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Affordable idea: What about having as many double greens as possible?  Just askin'.

Double greens are often triple sized so they can be expensive. If they are smaller they pose safety risk.

[Garland Bayley]

Pete Dye's mentor, Bill Diddel, made a effort to make interesting, and difficult courses without bunkers. Think about it. No bunker maintenance and problems! No delay in play due to bunker raking! 

As you have seen, Pete went the other way! That is until I read what Pete said about the modifications he was going to do to Whistling Straits for the PGA. He had decided that green side bunkers don't provide much of a test for tour pros. Therefore, he was planning to take some out and replace them with closely mown, significantly rumpled grassed areas. He concluded they would be a more difficult test for the tour pros, and be more enjoyable to the average golfer! I thought, "Pete you have finally caught on to what your mentor knew a long time ago."

Bill Diddel was one sharp dude, and Pete should pay a little more attention to what he did. So should Ron Whiffen for that matter! It might also save Pete Pittock from some golf injuries.

[Dan Herrmann]

Affordable ideas:
1.  Don't worry about the rough - don't fertilize it, don't irrigate it, and lord knows, don't stripe it with your mower
2.  Let the fairway grass grow a little
3.  Roll back the golf ball
4.  Maintain bunkers to a minimal standard
5.  See #1-4 - build shorter golf courses
6.  Slow down green speeds
7.  Let kids play for 50% - 80% off green fees during slow periods.
8.  Set up family green fee programs - $80 for a family of 4 during slow periods.  Throw in a 4 hot dogs too.  Make it a fun family day.
9.  Make it easy to buy cheap used golf clubs.  I have about 50 in my garage that I'm gonna donate to GAP, but that's a Philly thing.
10.  Make courses where losing a golf ball is a rare event.  Golf balls are expensive, unless you use my trick and go to www.lostgolfballs.com
11.  Relax dress codes at public courses.  A new golfer shouldn't need to buy a new shirt/pants to play.  Just be fairly neat and be done with it.

[Morgan Clawson]

Pete,

Cool idea. But, I think the folks that want to play a course of that length will want to play 18 holes.  They are stronger players and used to spending the time to play 18. Saving 30 minutes isn't goint to make a big enough difference for them.

I think the opportunity is there to make a great 9 hole courses that can be played from 2,000 - 3,600 yards.  I think avid players would go for something like that. And you could probably charge 60-65% of what a comparable 18 hole course would be.

[Carl Rogers]

For those who cannot attend the Affordable Symposium but have some out of the box ideas which would make Ron Whitten happier, what are your ideas, real or theoretical.
Here's mine:  Theoretrically, I'm going to build a 6500 yd course, but only have 15 holes. This will save money on construction because there are three fewer greens. This will save maintenance costs for the same reason. This will save time for playing a round of golf because the biggest time wasters are teeing off and putting. This would also appeal to longer players because the average hole length is longer. Par 3s would probably be limited to two holes as more than that would put excessive length on the remaining holes.
A 7200 yd 18 hole course averages 400 yds per hole. This course will average 430 yds per hole.

Comments

Terrible idea Peter commercially. 18 is the number, I have no reason to say why 15, 16 or 17 are not but a 'round' is 18. Far better on smaler parcels to get 18 holes in, if that means 6, 7 or 8 par 3s, it just has a lower par.

I agree Mr. Stiff.  18 holes are just too ingrained ... more par 3's, maybe only 1 par 5 ... the lower the par, the lower the stroke rating, the lower the slope would all make the game harder for lower handicap index player.

[Thomas McQuillan]

no more than two bunkers per hole, short tee to green walks and cut the rough quite short once a month

[Greg Tallman]

Perhaps I had too much tequila one evening several years ago but...

Came up with a model and routing whereby we would build 12 new holes that created the following:
1. An 18 hole course using holes from the back nine of an existing course that woudl play as holes 1-6 and flow into the 12 new holes creating the full course (morning tee times only 2-2.5 hours - up to 60 players)
2. Top shelf 9 holes course playable 11:30 & after each day
3. 3 hole practice/beginners course for afternoon play
4. Ability to keep two 18 holes options open at all times during maintenance

Works on paper and sounds logical... selling it to the masses would likely prove a bit more of a challenge.

[michael damico]

Comments

Terrible idea Peter commercially. 18 is the number, I have no reason to say why 15, 16 or 17 are not but a 'round' is 18. Far better on smaler parcels to get 18 holes in, if that means 6, 7 or 8 par 3s, it just has a lower par.
[/quote]




wouldn't a good way to easily solve that by making 18 sets of tees? Have (at least) 3 greens "approachable" from multiple angles (~270 to throw it out there). A tee is considerably less monetarily than a green. This would further lead into a discussion about the possibility of 9 greens and 18 tees I would presume...


I also always wondered about the downside of allowing for a majority of maintenance to be done by sheep and cattle. How does it interfere with the game?

[Trey Stiles]

While in college , I worked at a cool little course that was fun to play , cheap to build & EZ to maintain. Here are the highlights :

- 9 Greens
- Front Nine Tees & Back Nine Tees gave us an 18 Hole course ( Hole might be a short Par 4 on the front nine , on the back it might play as a Par 3 , long par 4 , par 5 , maybe from a different angle.
- Greens were relatively small , but could be mowed with a triplex
- Tees were minimally elevated and tee surrounds were large enough to turn a 5 gang
- Green surrounds were mild enough and sheet flowed well enough to mow around with a 5 gang
- Bunker edges were mild enough to mow with that same 5 gang
- Bunker had flat bottoms so we never threw sand after a rain
- If you had to , you could mow the whole place with a 5 gang and a triplex
- The Pro was also the GM , Accountant , Sales Team , Superintendent , Mechanic ... It was just Him and a few PT college kids who kept the whole place going.

If I were to do a course like that today , I would :
- use a little more land and focus on angles from the various tee options
- simplify bunkers / minimize bunker sq footage
- if at all possible , sheet flow the drainage , avoid internal drainage when possible
- greens designed with lots of movement so that they are interesting without resorting to warp speed
- spend extra shaping hours on shaping , shaping , shaping to create interesting golf without lots of bunkers
- small clubhouse with porch , place to pay your fees , snack bar with small seating area and a small changing room / bathroom
- small and simple maintenance shop
- 40 primary parking spaces in asphalt / concrete and another 40 overflow parking in well defined , well drained , closely mown turf
- clearly articulate a vision of affordable golf that includes details of why we did everything we did

We had a blast playing at that little course , I wish I had the bucks to develop it and see what kind of revenue we could do in today's market.

[Bill_McBride]

I also always wondered about the downside of allowing for a majority of maintenance to be done by sheep and cattle. How does it interfere with the game?

There was a substantial herd of cattle on the course at Pennard at the recent Buda Cup in Wales.



Some were quite attractive.



The cows mostly kept their distance.

This is the major hazard!

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