[JMEvensky]

Guys,
I'm certainly not condemning wealth, capitalism or anything like that....let me try to say it again....in search of elitism many golf developments have gone over the top and have helped create an atmosphere that is not indusive to reasonable/sustainable golf play....I don't see the top private clubs as elitiist , I see them moreso as people that can pay for something they want and do so...
I see th elitism mainly in some of the resorts and high end second/third home developments....and the scary thing there is that many members of older, local country clubs either buy homes in these areas or visit them on business or pleasure and come back to their old home clubs and start a trend of implementing what they saw at these old clubs....oh well...

It's not the elitism which is the problem,it's the ham-handed attempt to create faux elitism.

[Mike_Young]

Mike,

An easier word to get right is "dum".

Don't you try to bring me down to your level...I know you mispelled that word on porpoise ....

[Jeff_Brauer]

On porpoise?  You are making a whale of an assumption there, Mikey.

[Jeff_Brauer]

BTW, I am a great believer in golf going where its going to go and still being strong, and the fact that its a big world for not only architecture, but presentation, price, service, etc.  No one course offering scented towels is going to ruin the game......and faux elitism is a great term.  How about faux authenticity?

[Mike_Young]

I thought Mike was talking about wiener shavers.   

There was a weinershaven incident at the club last week....
But Bill true elitism is widescreen tv's over the urinals....

[Dave McCollum]

I offer up the Madison Club in the PS area as support of Mike's argument.  Shushi bars and custom chefs at 3 way stations.  My pro called up and inquired if we could have a go.  The polite answer was not "no way"; it was NFW, ever.  He was told that even homeowners in the development had to wait 6 months after they paid their initiation fees ($300K?) and dues before they could play.  Fine with me, of course, who would want to after getting a dose of that?  Oh, and you can get measured for a blazer and have it custom made for you while you play for a mere $2500+.  From my world, we need these gated communities to keep these types locked in.  

[Mike_Young]

On porpoise?  You are making a whale of an assumption there, Mikey.

Jeff,
you have "flipped"

[Jeff_Brauer]

Dave,

There is a golf course offering a "3 Way" station?  That doesn't sound elitist to me, its downright strip club tacky.

[Mike_Young]

BTW, I am a great believer in golf going where its going to go and still being strong, and the fact that its a big world for not only architecture, but presentation, price, service, etc.  No one course offering scented towels is going to ruin the game......and faux elitism is a great term.  How about faux authenticity?

Jeff,
Agreed....but it has brought the overall cost of golf and the expectations higher....good and bad...

[Jeff_Brauer]

That is an interesting topic.  In general, a lot of things become more expensive, and then get cheaper as more and more flood the market with copycat products, no?  I tend to think that is what happened, but could be wrong.

And cars, for example, get more expensive but have more gadgets.  At the same time, if you look at the CPI, you probably get more car per dollar now than ever, no?  Is golf the same?

[Jeff_Brauer]

BTW, there is some evidence that elitism isn't the most prevalent thing to ruin golf.  For instance, in this great recession, play (for all the whining) is only down about 2-3% from the peak.  Many businesses are down 30%.  Of course, by the time you figure in golf's discounting, revenues might be down that amount.  But, discounting doesn't smack of elitism to me!

What level of clubs and high end publics is there in the marketplace, really?  I doubt its more than 2%.

[Mike_Young]

I don't know if golf is the same but the courses that we were building for 2 to 2.5 in the 90's were often slammed by the same people pushing it and claiming to be the experts of such nowdays....I think the competition amongst supts during the last 20 years wa sso intnese that clubs that could affor dsuch and wanted the best , no matter the cost, provided an incubator for producing products and methods that many think is the only way to do it...and only because they have never seen anything else....some good came of it and some bad....ex:  lining bunker edges with sand bags...over the top....small heads on bunker faces..over the top....interchangeable "innerds" on irrigation heads ..good....electric greensmower ...good.....computerized soil monitoring..good....

[Mike_Young]

BTW, there is some evidence that elitism isn't the most prevalent thing to ruin golf.  For instance, in this great recession, play (for all the whining) is only down about 2-3% from the peak.  Many businesses are down 30%.  Of course, by the time you figure in golf's discounting, revenues might be down that amount.  But, discounting doesn't smack of elitism to me!

What level of clubs and high end publics is there in the marketplace, really?  I doubt its more than 2%.

agree....but it works like the airbag system in cars....IMHO  Mercedes has it first and then it trickles down...now since that was safety...great..it's the trickle down that concerns me....

[Mike_Young]

Jeff,
Am getting ready to go into a think tank with Mr Ian Andrews for a few hours...we will decide all the correct answers and respond later....

[Dave McCollum]

Jeff,

I agree.  My luck they'd be halfway houses--all tease with no finish.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I think interest rates and lending have something to do with all of it.

In the 90's, it made sense to borrow because of low rates. It would now, if you could get a loan.  In the 80's with high rates, it made less sense to "do it right" by spending more than you could pay as you go.  Now is more like the 80's.

[Martin Toal]

I don't really understand what this thread is about. I think I will get one of the artisans at the club to read and summarise it for me.

You, boy! Over here!

[Scott Warren]

Martin,

You're saying it's elitist for a club to have Artisans?

It's a lot more inclusive than not having them, isn't it?

[Tim Leahy]

Our whole society is elitist and golf just reflects society.
 If you don't like it, put on Caddyshack have a good laugh at it!

[Martin Toal]

Martin,

You're saying it's elitist for a club to have Artisans?

It's a lot more inclusive than not having them, isn't it?

I was not making a serious point, just faking a lack of self awareness.

[Scott Warren]

Fair enough, I thought maybe that was the case but it also ready as a clever dig at clubs having them.

[Martin Toal]

Fair enough, I thought maybe that was the case but it also ready as a clever dig at clubs having them.

Oh no, my ancestry and origins is much more artisan than debenture.

[Bob_Huntley]

Mike,

Golf started out as elitist centuries ago and remains so in most communities. Think Muirfield and Augusta.

Bob

I am always reminded of the hidden bias about country club golfers even from non-golfers. A classic reminder of this is an article in Time magazine of April 13, 1981, it went something like this. "This son of Sunbelt affluence —blond, blue-eyed, with the fleshy good looks of a country club lay-about—had never been outwardly quirky or unpleasant." The writer was commenting on the would be assassin of Ronald Reagan, John Hinkley.

In most peoples eyes the CC type is elitist.

 

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,954700,00.html#ixzz11nQ7zgjs

[Tim_Cronin]

Tim and Mike S,
Maybe I am describing the situation wrongly....
I don't call places Elitist...I'm calling people elitist...I don't consider a Merion, a Shinnecock, a SFGC elitist....I am calling the places that try to mimic so much of what the former places i mention naturally have.   I have found more pompous attitudes from a golf pro at a posh development with scented towels and 2 million dollars in rock walls around their ponds and polished stone in their cartpaths and lockers that cost 2500 dollars a piece...you never see anything like that at the former places...   I'm talking about the wannabes....for instance the Merions or Shinnecocks might place an walking bridge across a small creek in a simple manner for a couole of thousand bucks yet some new "top 10" in Scottsdale might spend 50,000 for the same situation....in the South we sometimes rate the clubs as "money clip clubs" or "billfold clubs".  The money clip club willoften have more Mercedes, more golf chains, more Rolexes and plenty of wine and big Cigars....the billfold club will have plenty of Crown Vics in the parking lot or old Buick Roadmasters, khaki pants, timex watch etc....in other words..I don't cal clubs elitist if the when the members are not trying to impress each other....it's the wanabes I am calling elitist...and it has permeated much of the industry in all aspects...JMO

Nicely said.

[Mike Wagner]

Mike,

I'm not sure about the question....but what I really want to know is if Roger Waters is really a member of NGLA???

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