[Ben Stephens]

Tom,

This par 3 over the water reminds me a bit of the 9th at Yale without the trees. Also I see on the layout posted by the Emperor (Eric!) that you have a Lido type split fairway par 5. Look forward to this coming to fruition!

Cheers
Ben

[Ted Cahill]

Looking at the renderings of the conference center/hotel, it makes me think of the Sawgrass facility- which is a slight letdown from my admitedly hyper expectations.  When C&C and Doak are designing at the same location it is hard not to halucinate about a Bandon like resort in Florida.  This now looks like a more traditional resort, conf center, golf destination.  Except the golf undoubtedly will be fabulous!

When I sober up from my Bandon/FL hallucinations- this really is a "who would have thunk?" development.  Who could have predicted a mining co. from Minnesota would have the foresite to hire these archies at a location that no one would have dreamed existed.  In Florida (great weather, shit GCA) no less.  For me, this projects is at least as exciting as Old MacDonald.  Objectively, OM is another amazing course at a buffet of amazing courses.  If OM had not been built, we would all still consider Bandon as one of the top golf destinations in the world.  

Florida, on the other hand, is bereft- to put it nicely.  We all go there for the weather and play golf, but it is always with the ever present notion that these courses are wanting.  I'd argue that World Woods gets over inflated ratings due to the "flatness of the terrain" (pun intended) of the other courses in FL.  Put World Woods in Scottsdale or Las Vegas and it would fade into the woodwork.  

But these two new courses will change the whole conversation in FL.  On a side note, when looking at the diagram of the Red and Blue layouts and the decidedly less water carries on the Red (C&C) course, I couldn't help thinking of the Bill Coore quote, "We don't do water holes".  

[Ross Tuddenham]

Tom

Thanks for the response.  Just wondered as the photos of the site seemed to show a lot of water that presumably gathered in many areas due to mining activities. 

Does the fact the water features are a result of industrial processes give them a unique look compared to other courses?


On the par three seventh do you think it will be possible to land a ball up on the shoulders and the bank and let it run back down onto the green. In some ways taking the water out of play more than on a normal water carry par three as you can club up and feel safe in doing so.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom

Thanks for the response.  Just wondered as the photos of the site seemed to show a lot of water that presumably gathered in many areas due to mining activities. 

Does the fact the water features are a result of industrial processes give them a unique look compared to other courses?

On the par three seventh do you think it will be possible to land a ball up on the shoulders and the bank and let it run back down onto the green. In some ways taking the water out of play more than on a normal water carry par three as you can club up and feel safe in doing so.

Ross,
 These lakes are not like very many I have seen.  In many cases the golf holes are ten or even twenty feet above water level, with very steep banks down to the waterline.  We may have to change some of that for safety's sake.

As for the shot on 7, there is already much speculation amongmmy crew about whether balls will come off the backboard along the right flank of the green.  If you blow up the photo, you can see that about 60 feet up the hill to the right there is a crumpled leftover of corrugated metal pipe (it looks like the rib cage of a dinosaur) ... Mike McCartin is determined to be the first guy to bounce one off that pipe and down onto the green.  But, I certainly don't think you will be able to count on the ball coming down the bank ... The majority will stay up there somewhere that it will be hard to even climb up to.  The only other green I have seen next to a hill that big is the 16th at Ballybunion.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

Does your course have a semi-remote start and finish?

- Will

Will,

Not really.  The first tee is up on a huge dune and the eighteenth green is down at grade, both of them about 200 yards out away from the clubhouse.  There will be a large practice green in between, plus room to stage carts for big outings.     You can also see on the map around the SW corner of the big lake by the clubhouse, there will be a little bye hole ... not to play back in when you finish, but to play from the clubhouse end in the evenings after a couple of beers.  We anticipate that hole will be lit for play after dark.

[Scott Szabo]

You can also see on the map around the SW corner of the big lake by the clubhouse, there will be a little bye hole ... not to play back in when you finish, but to play from the clubhouse end in the evenings after a couple of beers.  We anticipate that hole will be lit for play after dark.

Now that would be cool.

[Ross Tuddenham]

"the majority will stay up there somewhere that it will be hard to even climb up to"

I like the sound of that, a shot that needs mountain goat balance on a steep bank and a flop shot back towards a lake.  

Also like the idea that you will leave some of the remnants of the sites previous use, like the corrugated iron dinosaur ribs.  Are there any other artefacts that will survive?

[Ben Kodadek]

Tom,

With your mention of carts for larger outings, is there a hope that this will be mainly a walking facility?

[Matthew Sander]

Ben,

I imagine that would be a tough sell for a Florida resort in the summer. I'd be all for it though...

That begs an OT question, are there any courses whose walking only policies are seasonal?

[Tony Weiler]

A 36 hole day on a C & C and then a Doak!  Where else, realistically (by car) could you do that?  Denver area with Common Ground and CGC; Lost Farm/Barnbougle Dunes; and Bandon?  Am I missing any?

I also remembered Friar's Head and Sebonak, but my odds of a 36 there are NOT that great!

[Ben Kodadek]

Matthew,

No doubt it would be a tough sell for some.  Old Memorial remains walking year round and with a caddy it's not nearly as bad as one would think.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

A 36 hole day on a C & C and then a Doak!  Where else, realistically (by car) could you do that?  Denver area with Common Ground and CGC; Lost Farm/Barnbougle Dunes; and Bandon?  Am I missing any?

Warren Course/Lost Dunes

[Matthew Sander]

Ben,

Good point, and I've heard the vibe at Old Memorial is quite special.

I just think that due to its much more accessible location (as opposed to Bandon), this new project will attract a somewhat different clientele and for better or worse, walking probably won't be a priority for many (especially when it is 98 degrees with near 100% humidity). I'm only speculating though, and if they forge ahead with at least a walking friendly agenda I'll applaud. We'll see, the entire context around the opening of this resort will be interesting.

[Derek_Duncan]

Ted Cahill,

I agree about the lodging. If they build what the rendition depicts it will be a lost opportunity. That's looks like just a slightly more updated version of the standard box resort so common in greater Orlando. I would have liked to see something more deconstructed and indigenous.


Tom,

There's a lot of sand built up above grade on this site. How far below the surface does it go? I'm wondering about drainage; the land around the site looks pretty flat, but if memory recalls you're a decent bit above sea level there, no?

What are your thoughts about the grasses you might use in that climate and how they might affect the design?

[Tom_Doak]

I did not realize that Old Memorial was walking only.  I will have to try and get our client to go play there. 

The courses are built to be walkable.  However, it is inconceivable that with the type of group business they will cater to, that the majority of people won't be in carts.  It would have been pretty hot to walk 18 holes yesterday, at about 80 degrees.

Derek,

The lake level is 128 feet above sea level.  There are a couple of places where the overburden material Includes stuff that isn't as sandy, but most of the site is sand down well below the water table.

[Ted Cahill]

I did not realize that Old Memorial was walking only.  I will have to try and get our client to go play there. 

The courses are built to be walkable.  However, it is inconceivable that with the type of group business they will cater to, that the majority of people won't be in carts.  It would have been pretty hot to walk 18 holes yesterday, at about 80 degrees.

Derek,

The lake level is 128 feet above sea level.  There are a couple of places where the overburden material Includes stuff that isn't as sandy, but most of the site is sand down well below the water table.

It's a relief to hear the courses will be walkable.  I happily accept that many (especially resort golfers) want to play with carts.  But I don't like it when walking is forbidden either by rule or course layout.  Not suprising that TD and CC are designing their courses to be walked, but it's nice to hear it from the horses mouth.

[Kris Shreiner]

Old Memorial has a superb vibe and super caddie staff in the main. I was fortunate enough to tee it up late May, of last year, and they just nailed the entire experience. Friendly staff, low-key pro shop, solid fare and refreshments in a classy, but relaxed grill. The track was stout and had plenty of interest, despite the flattish terrain.

As good as that all was, the topper was... the best individual group of caddies I've ever been around. I've done the job for living and always respect quality caddies. I'd also rate myself as setting a high bar in my evaluation of the caddie dynamic when I'm at a destination facility or club.  As it was a slower day, play-wise, our threesome all had singles;every one was rock solid. I saw a couple of others, in action with players in during the course of our round (Vinny Testeverde was a few holes ahead with another group) and I saw some smooth pros just doing their thing. My view has always been...the really special places just are...nothing is forced, there is just a rightness about how everything unfolds during your day at a place. That's Old Memorial!

Great ground demands a quality caddie staff. Weather players choose to walk or ride is irrelevant, that quality caddie experience just takes the whole thing to another level. I hope that Streamsong development ownership gets to sample what a superb TOTAL experience, such as Old Memorial delivers, is all about.

All the really top shelf tracks have the quality caddie dynamic. It could be more consistent in some cases, but at least its there. Those that claim they're on that level, all about pure golf,  and don't...sorry they just don't have the same juice.

Cheers

[Greg Tallman]

My only question is will the mining company get partial design credit for creating the unnaturally occuring features on the back of which the golf offering is being built?

[Tom_Doak]

Greg,

They should get partial shaping credit, really.  But I don't know if they would take it.  Both Bill and I like the name Mosaic and think it should be attached to the resort directly, but the company board seems reluctant to tie their future directly to a business so far outside their core function.

[Greg Tallman]

Greg,

They should get partial shaping credit, really.  But I don't know if they would take it.  Both Bill and I like the name Mosaic and think it should be attached to the resort directly, but the company board seems reluctant to tie their future directly to a business so far outside their core function.

Tom, Obviously I was half joking but with as cool as that green site is it were as though you had a covert ops crew within the mining industry. Mosaic does seem a nice name for the place.

[Tom_Doak]

Greg:

That just goes to prove what I have always felt ... we are more creative just finding cool stuff on a site than we could ever be trying to create it ourselves.

[Ross Tuddenham]

Tom

There has been a great deal of talk on here about innovation and golf course architecture.  Is it possible that using ex industrial sites like your Florida project and chambers bay could by where such innovation may come from?  The idea of reusing an industrial site certainly sits better with me than the likes of trump ripping up an sssi.

[Steve Lang]

  It would have been pretty hot to walk 18 holes yesterday, at about 80 degrees.

you've got to be kidding or your blood has really thinned!

[Tom_Doak]

Steve:

Thinned, or thickened?  Really, I'm just out of shape, but no more so than most of the golfers in America.

I'm from the great white north.  It was 80 degrees, the site is 100% sand reflecting the heat, and there is very little opportunity for shade.  I would have been pretty sweaty trying to carry my bag and play.  But I would have done so anyway, just because I am stubborn and I hate to take a cart except for the comfort of my playing companions.  

[Nick Church]

Maybe it's obnoxiously obvious, but since I played there 2 springs ago, I'll stick my neck out.

This project has similarities in the land type as Victoria National in Indiana, correct??

If so, maybe Mr. Doak can speak as to the differences and/or similarities?

I thoroughly enjoyed my round at Victoria Nat'l, but now imagining the playing experience, visual and design challenges on that property given a Doak or C&C --- well if I'm anywhere close in my assessment, it's a very exciting proposal.

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