15 @ Celtic

[Brian Chapin]

This gets into a conversation on an earlier thread about a short hole can't be too severe.  IMO the 15th at Celtic is a weak hole.  I think it plays about 260 - 270 yds to a green nearly 18 yards wide.  As an "heroic" hole I don't think that it is well designed.  The green is set up to receive a long shot well as it is aligned directly toward the tee, allowing a driver to hit and run towards the back of the green.  There doesn't seem to be much penalty for a shot that comes up short.  Left of the green is a lateral hazard that is situated far from the green and surrounded by an overgrown rough collar, preventing balls from running into the water.  To the right of the green the player has all the room in the world to bail out.  The trees are even trimmed down in line with the green from the tee, allowing a perfect view of the putting surface.  I can't see a reason that any player would go left into the fairway, and apparently nether can any of the Ryder cup players as none of them have played "safe" into the fairway.  I wonder what the scoring average on this hole is... I've seen many birdies from near the hazard and far right of the green.  In fact i think an argument could be made that the hole could be more difficult from the left fairway as the green is much wider than deep from that angle and you have to play over the hazard and up a hill.

I think that if the rough around the green was all closely mowed fairway it would make for a much more interesting hole as the result of shots missing the green would be much more unpredictable and end up further away from the putting surface.  It would also bring the water hazard much more into play.

[Brian Phillips]

I think it is an awful hole.  Is it true that this is one of the original holes from the old course?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Hi Brian,

It is one of the original holes from the Wentwood Hills course. I also know that they cut the trees down on the direct line for the shortcut, I think for this tournament (although I'm less sure about that) - I'm not sure how much of an option that was previously.

That's about all I know. Unfortunately, I've seen about 25 minutes of the coverage so far.

[Mark Pearce]

Sadly, one of the Sky commentators described it as a "great risk/reward hole". Absurd, since, as Brian points out not one player, not one, has elected to lay up in the fairway.  It's not a good hole.

[Aidan Bradley]

Guys,

Please, stop the silly nonsense. The top 24 players in the world are playing the course today. Next week and next month and the rest of the year the course will be played by hacks and average golfers and 25 handicaper wealthy individuals who stay at the resort. They will take the low road and enjoy it.  Occasionally some Budweiser swilling cigar smoking poodle dicks with too much testosterone will test their manhood and duck hook it in to the trees. Leave it alone. It's just another hole.

Aidan.

[Tony_Muldoon]

I played it before it was in the 2010 course and as Ally says, the direct route to the green was precarious; it’s much more open today.  However it does come between 14 and 16 – long two shotter’s and I’m pretty sure (most of) the flag is blind from the tee.

From the other fairway the green receives, so it’s like the Belfry 10th for regular punters.  Most will have a provisional belt at the green and then play the safe route. The hole must have been conceived 15 years ago by RTJ, and technology has more than caught up with it.

[Mark Pearce]

Guys,

Please, stop the silly nonsense. The top 24 players in the world are playing the course today. Next week and next month and the rest of the year the course will be played by hacks and average golfers and 25 handicaper wealthy individuals who stay at the resort. They will take the low road and enjoy it.  Occasionally some Budweiser swilling cigar smoking poodle dicks with too much testosterone will test their manhood and duck hook it in to the trees. Leave it alone. It's just another hole.

Aidan.

A post which takes the Adrian Stiff "Look Guys, I really understand the way the game works far better than you silly idealists" prize for the evening.

Sadly, it's also wrong.  It's not a good hole for anyone, Aiden, not the best in the world or your average hacker.  Not least because, as far as I can tell, the gap in the trees they cut to allow the pros to go at the green isn't there off the front tees.  Can anyone who has played the course confirm this?  In the meantime, I shall exercise my prerogative (sorry, Aiden) and repeat my view that tis is a BAD short par 4, at least for the guys plaing it this week.  Interestingly, another much maligned Ryder Cup venue could show Rees Jones (if this is indeed one of his holes), how to do it.  The 10th at The Belfry is a MUCH better driveable par 4 for the pros.

[Ken Moum]

Sadly, one of the Sky commentators described it as a "great risk/reward hole". Absurd, since, as Brian points out not one player, not one, has elected to lay up in the fairway.  It's not a good hole.

It's a fine hole, it's just not a par four.

I was going to make a post based on your note that if EVERY player went for the green, it is par three. And a pretty damned good par three if you ask me.

But if you give the pros a par three where they all have to hit driver, they whine like hell.  Call it a par four and they think it's fine.

K

[Mark Pearce]

Sadly, one of the Sky commentators described it as a "great risk/reward hole". Absurd, since, as Brian points out not one player, not one, has elected to lay up in the fairway.  It's not a good hole.

It's a fine hole, it's just not a par four.

I was going to make a post based on your note that if EVERY player went for the green, it is par three. And a pretty damned good par three if you ask me.

But if you give the pros a par three where they all have to hit driver, they whine like hell.  Call it a par four and they think it's fine.

K

Ken,

Now that is an astute comment.  It doesn't make it a great "risk/reward" hole, but I'll buy calling it a par 3.  Not a good one, but not as bad as it is as the intended "strategic" or "risk/reward" driveable par 4.  It might be better if the bank on the left was shaved so that tee shots missing left, or overhit second shots fom the rough on the right were in the stream.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Rees Jones (if this is indeed one of his holes),

RTJ snr (modified), I believe.

...and quit trying to be funny about Adrian etc.  They're just telling us what their understanding of the market is, and they aren't laymen who like sounding off around like minded folk. You might not like what they're saying but that’s all the more reason to listen carefully.

[Brad Klein]

There's no risk for Ryder Cup players because the bank above the hazard left of the green isn't shaved down. If it were they might be less aggressive, but as we saw today, Graeme McDowell birdied from the high rough in the hazard.

For 2 of 4 rounds at the Celtic Manor Wales Open they play a different tee on the 15th hole that really steers players to the left in playing a lay-up par-4. But for resort guests the hole is awful, since you have to hit your drive 200+ yard to clear the angle of trees on the inside of the dogleg for a second shot, and if you don't you cannot go for the green in two. They'd be able to take out more of those trees except for some regulatory/permitting restrictions on cutting trees along a stream bank. So for average players the hole is just awful, and the angle from the fairway is far more awkward and narrow than the straight on shot from the tee. It's just a long par-3 for those guys.

[Aidan Bradley]

"at least for the guys plaing it this week." 

Marc, that is exactly my point. What about the other 51 weeks. We have no idea how the hole plays because we have not seen the other option. It just seems like a "made for TV hole" for this week and from that perspective I agree with you.

[Brian Chapin]

 Occasionally some Budweiser swilling cigar smoking poodle dicks with too much testosterone will test their manhood and duck hook it in to the trees. Leave it alone. It's just another hole.

Aidan.
[/quote]

Do they drink Budweiser in Wales?


 

[Marty Bonnar]

Occasionally some Budweiser swilling cigar smoking poodle dicks with too much testosterone will test their manhood and duck hook it in to the trees. Leave it alone. It's just another hole.

Aidan.

Do they drink Budweiser in Wales?


 
[/quote]


They do at places like Celtic Manor.

[Brian Chapin]

fair enough... 

[Paul_Turner]

I played this hole on its opening day (1998?) and I don't think any of the club members had a crack at it.  The trees were much higher and it wasn't really a tempting option, everyone played to the left.   Although even back then, we did know it had been designed for that option for the Ryder Cup.

Wentwood Hills was a Trent Jr course and I think 9 holes are left in the 2010 course that EGD incorporated.  Most of the remaining 9 Wentwood/Trent Jr holes are now in Monty's 18, but a couple were abandoned or changed a lot (the old 3rd and 4th).

Trent Snr did the Roman Road but he was very old by then....so I think it was really by Roger Rulewich.  It's mostly intact apart from a good long par 5 getting broken into a weak par 4 and weak par 3. 

The old short course "Coldra Woods" was also Trent Snr/Rulewich and I liked its sporty nature.  But I think only a few holes are left now....Monty incorporated some into his course but redid most of them.

[Bill_McBride]

Guys,

Please, stop the silly nonsense. The top 24 players in the world are playing the course today. Next week and next month and the rest of the year the course will be played by hacks and average golfers and 25 handicaper wealthy individuals who stay at the resort. They will take the low road and enjoy it.  Occasionally some Budweiser swilling cigar smoking poodle dicks with too much testosterone will test their manhood and duck hook it in to the trees. Leave it alone. It's just another hole.

Aidan.

Right on, Aiden, give 'em hell!  I agree 100%.  Holes like that are fun to watch in top level comp. 

One thing I noticed is that the announcers were saying the direct line carry was 240 yards more or less. How could that be, those flat bellies were hitting driver!

[Alex Miller]

Guys,

Please, stop the silly nonsense. The top 24 players in the world are playing the course today. Next week and next month and the rest of the year the course will be played by hacks and average golfers and 25 handicaper wealthy individuals who stay at the resort. They will take the low road and enjoy it.  Occasionally some Budweiser swilling cigar smoking poodle dicks with too much testosterone will test their manhood and duck hook it in to the trees. Leave it alone. It's just another hole.

Aidan.

Bill, it's uphill 30 feet and into whatever wind there is.

Aidan's point would be valid if this course was instructed without knowledge that the Ryder Cup was on its way. Alas one more tee maybe 25 yards further back makes this hole 10 times better. The Budweiser swilling hacks could just play one or two sets up. Problem solved!
Right on, Aiden, give 'em hell!  I agree 100%.  Holes like that are fun to watch in top level comp.  

One thing I noticed is that the announcers were saying the direct line carry was 240 yards more or less. How could that be, those flat bellies were hitting driver!

[John Moore II]

For what its worth, I think Brandel Chamblee (or someone from Golf Channel) said it was a poor risk/reward, short par 4. I agree. I have said this about par 5's in the past, and I can say it here, if a green is reachable by 75+ percent of the field in a given event, its not a par 5 or par 4. #6 at Pebble Beach is not a par 5, #17 at Oakmont is not a par 4, #13 and #15 at Augusta are not par 5's and so on. But whatever. This is match play, so it makes little difference either way. Still a less than great hole though.

[Ian Andrew]

Guys,

Please, stop the silly nonsense. The top 24 players in the world are playing the course today. Next week and next month and the rest of the year the course will be played by hacks and average golfers and 25 handicaper wealthy individuals who stay at the resort. They will take the low road and enjoy it.  Occasionally some Budweiser swilling cigar smoking poodle dicks with too much testosterone will test their manhood and duck hook it in to the trees. Leave it alone. It's just another hole.

Aidan,

I disagree completely with you on this one.

I played it this spring and the lower route is really awkward and difficult.
If you have any decent length, the right side is much easier without the rough.

[Phil McDade]

It seems like a lesser version of the 10th at Belfry. From past RCups, I seem to recall some choices being made on the tee at the Belfry-- I think I recall some partnerships in foursomes arranging their shots off tees so the longer of the two players could tee off on the 10th. The commentators today said no player went the fairway route, which makes it one-dimensional and essentially a par 3 as noted above. The mound and thick rough right of the hole makes sense, but it seems they ought to shave the green surrounds left to bring the water more into play. Birdies and pars were made today from the hazard, which makes me think it's not much of a hazard.

[Bill Seitz]

It seems like a lesser version of the 10th at Belfry. From past RCups, I seem to recall some choices being made on the tee at the Belfry-- I think I recall some partnerships in foursomes arranging their shots off tees so the longer of the two players could tee off on the 10th. The commentators today said no player went the fairway route, which makes it one-dimensional and essentially a par 3 as noted above. The mound and thick rough right of the hole makes sense, but it seems they ought to shave the green surrounds left to bring the water more into play. Birdies and pars were made today from the hazard, which makes me think it's not much of a hazard.

Could players play directly at the 10th at the Belfry?  I seem to recall there being trees in the front right portion of that green that required a player to hit a cut, which can be a difficult shot for the guys who routinely play draws.  I like you said, there was some strategy involved in the foursomes sessions. 

As for whether it's a par three or par four and that whole conversation, who cares?  Call it a par 10 if you want.  You still have to get the ball in the hole in fewer strokes than the other guy.  How many times in the course of a season do we see PGA pros hitting driver into a green?  Certainly not every week.  265-300 yards is a lost distance on a golf course.  I don't mind seeing these guys forced to negotiate that every now and then. 

[James Boon]

Its pretty much been said already, but the thing that has really dissappointed me about this hole this week is that  no one has played the left hand / lay up route. Also (again as already said before) is that the water wasn't more in play, with players getting up and down from left of the green.

So is it a poor hole, or is it just badly set up for this week?

Play it off a tee further back, so not everyone can go for it. Make the slope left of the green fairway all the way down to the water hazard, just like the one in front of the 18th. And by those two simple adjustments its suddenly a decent risk / reward par 4, certainly not in the league of other great short par 4s in this world, but ideal for this event?

Cheers,

James

[Phil McDade]

Bill:

It just seemed that everyone decided to have a go at it, and the only issue was execution of the shot -- essentially what you see on 98 percent of all shots in a golf tournament. It was playing 250 yds uphill today, which is not all that demanding for today's best. I'd prefer another tee back 25 yards or so, so it was 275-280 uphill, with a slicker cut of the grass toward the stream -- to me, that's a significantly more interesting hole.

The Belfry did require a cut of some kind, which is what to me made it interesting. The hole called on the player to do something other than just execute a standard shot. I also recall some foursomes and fourballs would take the fairway route if they had a particularly good wedge player, like Kite.

[Adam Lawrence]

I see it as an uphill version of Loch Lomond's fourteenth. The issue with any driveable par four is the green complex. How much risk is involved in having a pot at the green? Maybe the green needs more tilt, maybe the real problem is just that the rain has left the green so soft that even a driver is going to hit and stick.