[Carl Nichols]

JNC-
I generally agree with you. But do you think there are some circumstances--like GUR, cart paths, casual water, etc.--where it's appropriate to put your hands on the ball because of the lie? If so, what's different about the situations you do and don't think it should be permitted?

[JNC Lyon]

Carl,

Great questions.  I know that I have taken drops from casual water, GUR, and cartpaths in my time.  I've even played lift, clean, and place in tournaments when it's allowed (though I have not played this way in quite some time).  However, every time I take such a drop, I always feel a little weird about it, almost like I am cheating within the rules.  As I continue to play, I become less and less willing to take drops in these situations. I guess that's the best answer I can give.

When you consider these drops, ask yourself: how interesting would the Road Hole at St. Andrews be if you got a free drop from the road and path behind the green?  How interesting would the Pit at North Berwick be if the stone wall was an obstruction?

[Sean_A]

Sean-
Are really wet fairways--that, let's assume, result in mud on the ball fairly frequently--"extenuating circumstances"?

Carl, well, for an inland course in Wales during October, probably not - tee hee.  

Honestly, imo, yes.  There were still a lot of areas today that were not clever lies, but no relief was granted.  There will be plenty of situations where the weather is causing enough character building problems that it isn't necessary to pile it on.  Just the number of drains on the course should make it evident that drainage is an issue and if this is known going in, what is the point of staring back at mother nature with the bird flipped?  If in the fairway pick clean and DROP (never place imo).  If in the rough and plugged, pick and drop.  Seems sensible to me.

Ciao    

[Ulrich Mayring]

If a player and his opponent / playing partners agree that it is certain or virtually certain that a ball went into the water, then it is not a lost ball and there is no stroke and distance penalty. Therefore, something could be done about the wind: if it is certain or virtually certain that a gust of wind blew the player's ball off the target, he is allowed to replay it.

Does that sound silly? I think it does. And not much sillier than the local rule on many courses that makes you replay your shot if you hit a power line.

For the Ryder Cup I would not allow touching the ball at all, unless on the green. Play the ball as it lies and if you can't, you lose the hole. Hit it in the lake, you're out of the hole. That would do wonders for pace of play AND golf architecture ;-)

Ulrich

[JNC Lyon]

If a player and his opponent / playing partners agree that it is certain or virtually certain that a ball went into the water, then it is not a lost ball and there is no stroke and distance penalty. Therefore, something could be done about the wind: if it is certain or virtually certain that a gust of wind blew the player's ball off the target, he is allowed to replay it.

Does that sound silly? I think it does. And not much sillier than the local rule on many courses that makes you replay your shot if you hit a power line.

For the Ryder Cup I would not allow touching the ball at all, unless on the green. Play the ball as it lies and if you can't, you lose the hole. Hit it in the lake, you're out of the hole. That would do wonders for pace of play AND golf architecture ;-)

Ulrich

That last sentence is a good point.  I think many of these problems with the rules (GUR, Cart Paths, Casual Water) result from weaknesses in the way courses are laid out.

[Mac Plumart]

I would not allow touching the ball at all, unless on the green. Play the ball as it lies and if you can't, you lose the hole. Hit it in the lake, you're out of the hole. That would do wonders for pace of play AND golf architecture

Hmmmm....do we have a winner?  I think so!!!!

[Tim Martin]

If a player and his opponent / playing partners agree that it is certain or virtually certain that a ball went into the water, then it is not a lost ball and there is no stroke and distance penalty. Therefore, something could be done about the wind: if it is certain or virtually certain that a gust of wind blew the player's ball off the target, he is allowed to replay it.

Does that sound silly? I think it does. And not much sillier than the local rule on many courses that makes you replay your shot if you hit a power line.

For the Ryder Cup I would not allow touching the ball at all, unless on the green. Play the ball as it lies and if you can't, you lose the hole. Hit it in the lake, you're out of the hole. That would do wonders for pace of play AND golf architecture ;-)

Ulrich

That last sentence is a good point.  I think many of these problems with the rules (GUR, Cart Paths, Casual Water) result from weaknesses in the way courses are laid out.

Ulrich-I agree completely with your first paragraph but I don`t see why someone involved in a casual round/match should be penalized by hitting an electrical wire 100 feet in the air.

JNC-At the U. S. Open in 2009 at Bethpage Black there was quite a bit of casual water. Did this have something to do with the weaknesses in the way the course was laid out or perhaps mother nature?

[Sean_A]

If a player and his opponent / playing partners agree that it is certain or virtually certain that a ball went into the water, then it is not a lost ball and there is no stroke and distance penalty. Therefore, something could be done about the wind: if it is certain or virtually certain that a gust of wind blew the player's ball off the target, he is allowed to replay it.

Does that sound silly? I think it does. And not much sillier than the local rule on many courses that makes you replay your shot if you hit a power line.

For the Ryder Cup I would not allow touching the ball at all, unless on the green. Play the ball as it lies and if you can't, you lose the hole. Hit it in the lake, you're out of the hole. That would do wonders for pace of play AND golf architecture ;-)

Ulrich

That last sentence is a good point.  I think many of these problems with the rules (GUR, Cart Paths, Casual Water) result from weaknesses in the way courses are laid out.

I am not ssure we can say it is a weakness of design, but perhaps a weak site or a business model that doesn't put the golf first and trust that it is good enough to bring in the money.  Hopefully, places like Bandon will start to change the opinions of resort/public course owners in terms of wider the picture, but I fear that we have many designers not able or willing to rattle cages.  This is a keep yer head down sort of climate and most archies by nature (because most people by nature) are not boat rockers.

Ciao  

[Colin Macqueen]

"Is there anyone here that would like to see a return of the stymie?"

Bring it on !!!!

Colin

[JR Potts]

I find it to be quite enjoyable.  And, if it rains so much that globs of mud are sticking to the ball, and you want to have an event where the best player has the best shot of winning (like the Ryder Cup), i have no issues with lift clean and place.

Further, Ive never felt guilty lifting the ball and placing it when sanctioned in an event.  Those are the rules....so I play by them.

All that being said, 6 six hour Ryder Cup rounds are preposterous and totally inexcusable.

[Matt_Ward]

JNC:

I hear all your points --  but you keep on missing mine and a few others who have chimed in the same way.

The Ryder Cup is an event by the PGA of America and the Euro side. They can play by whatever rules they want.

Minus the pick and clean they follow uniformly the USGA / R&A.

The TV audience is in the millions -- and plenty of $$$ has been spent for this week.

I don't like Celtic Manor but when you have a few MEGA DEEP POCKET people who will throw BUNDLES OF $$$$$$$$$$$ to stage an event the sponsoring associations will jump toot sweet. Herb Kohler bought himself a few PGA's and a future Ryder Cup. The USGA would do no less.

Slow play is something that can be pushed along but don't expect too much progress there.

People want to see good golf played -- for all your purists nashing your teeth at the site of those bending over in the fairway and touching the ball -- give it a rest. If you don't like it -- then watch the NFL or some other event.

[Jud_T]

Could get pretty exciting tomorrow.  Sure I'd rather see 'em play a links, but if I were one of 45,000 watching 4 groups I'd be thankful for the ampitheaters.  One thing- Harrington and Fisher have got to be the slowest twosome ever. They clearly should have got a 60 second warning and possibly a penalty.

[JR Potts]

Matt - you're barking up the wrong tree as if theyre consistent most on here likely stopped watching NFL football when they got rid of the leather helmet, instituted the roughing the passer penalty and the down by contact rule.  The game, like today's version of Ryder Cup golf, had to have been ruined for them as well.

[Carl Nichols]

Thankfully we didn't get a Harrington/Fisher v Cink/Furyk fourball!

[JNC Lyon]

I would not allow touching the ball at all, unless on the green. Play the ball as it lies and if you can't, you lose the hole. Hit it in the lake, you're out of the hole. That would do wonders for pace of play AND golf architecture

Hmmmm....do we have a winner?  I think so!!!!

That is a great post, I agree Mac.  I wish people would climb out on some limbs with their opinions and gain some new perspective.  The attitude that "we can't change anything or halt progress, so why bother" is narrow and an excuse for apathy. People will dismiss Ulrich's idea as radical, and in doing so they miss the truth: it is probably a good idea.

[JNC Lyon]

JNC:

I hear all your points --  but you keep on missing mine and a few others who have chimed in the same way.

The Ryder Cup is an event by the PGA of America and the Euro side. They can play by whatever rules they want.

Minus the pick and clean they follow uniformly the USGA / R&A.

The TV audience is in the millions -- and plenty of $$$ has been spent for this week.

The question is not what these organizations can do.  The question is what should they do.  The PGA of America should be setting an example for how the game ought to be played.  Golf is, by its very nature, a traditional game rooted in customs that have evolved over hundreds of years.  Therefore, the PGA of America should be promoting the traditions of the game.  As I said in one of my earlier posts, the PGA is doing the exact opposite.  Saying "they can do whatever they want" is not a good attitude to have.  That's like saying, "my government can do whatever it wants, and it does not really matter what laws they pass or how its officials behave."  It is an apathetic attitude that leads to the breakdown of the traditions upon which the game rests.

I don't like Celtic Manor but when you have a few MEGA DEEP POCKET people who will throw BUNDLES OF $$$$$$$$$$$ to stage an event the sponsoring associations will jump toot sweet. Herb Kohler bought himself a few PGA's and a future Ryder Cup. The USGA would do no less.

Another bad lesson here: golf needs to be expensive to be good.  Shame on the governing bodies for promoting this view.

Slow play is something that can be pushed along but don't expect too much progress there.

Slow play is Exhibit A for how the professional game affects everyday life.  This decline started with Nicklaus in the 1960s, and it gets progressively worse.  This is what happens when the PGA Tour and its players are allowed to do whatever they want with no thought for consequences.

People want to see good golf played -- for all your purists nashing your teeth at the site of those bending over in the fairway and touching the ball -- give it a rest. If you don't like it -- then watch the NFL or some other event.

As an avid NFL fan, I'll probably watch that tomorrow.  The Ryder Cup does not appeal to me in its current state.

[John Moore II]

Folks we are working under the assumption that the PGA is an intelligent organization. In my experience, they are not. They routinely shaft their own members by pushing these PGM programs and sending huge numbers of new members into the business, hurting the pro's by driving down how much they are paid, all in an attempt to remain the largest sports organization. The have shafted the members by taking away spots in the PGA Championship. They come up with all these Certified Professional and Master Professional programs as 'benchmarks' for excellence or whatever, yet most are fairly easy to come by with slight work that they are more or less pointless. The PGA does very little to protect the game, and frankly, they do little to grow the game. They work to pump out new, robotic professionals who know very little about the game itself and even less about the regional differences in the business. I hate to say this about an organization I associated with, but its true.

As for the venues, it goes to what I just said above, they are chasing the dollars, not tradition. Sad but true.

[Paul_Turner]

I don't think the game was ever quite so "pure" as some make out here i.e. play the ball as it lies whatever the situation,  There were always some circumstances where players were permitted to handle the ball.

From the original Muirfield rules 1744:

If your ball comes among watter, or any wattery filth, you are at liberty to take out your ball and bringing it behind the hazard and teeing it, you may play it with any club and allow your adversary a stroke for so getting out your ball."

"If your balls be found anywhere touching one another you are to lift the first ball till you play the last."

[Kevin Pallier]

The worst Ryder Cup I’ve seen was that at The Country Club in 1999.

It will always be remembered for the events that overshadowed the golf.

[Carl Johnson]

Folks we are working under the assumption that the PGA is an intelligent organization. In my experience, they are not. They routinely shaft their own members by pushing these PGM programs and sending huge numbers of new members into the business, hurting the pro's by driving down how much they are paid, all in an attempt to remain the largest sports organization. The have shafted the members by taking away spots in the PGA Championship. They come up with all these Certified Professional and Master Professional programs as 'benchmarks' for excellence or whatever, yet most are fairly easy to come by with slight work that they are more or less pointless. The PGA does very little to protect the game, and frankly, they do little to grow the game. They work to pump out new, robotic professionals who know very little about the game itself and even less about the regional differences in the business. I hate to say this about an organization I associated with, but its true.

As for the venues, it goes to what I just said above, they are chasing the dollars, not tradition. Sad but true.

Spot on (but from an outsider, so not at John's level).

[John Moore II]

The worst Ryder Cup I’ve seen was that at The Country Club in 1999.

It will always be remembered for the events that overshadowed the golf.

Funny thing is, that was the last time they played the Cup on a great, classic course. It is just a matter of them putting too many spectators on the course and not regulating them properly. I think if they were not so worried about crowds (after all, I would say very little of the total revenue comes from on-site stuff) you could see the Cup held at many other places. I think you could limit the tickets to about 8,000 and take the event to any number of other sites.

[BDuryee]

I'm always curious  if these discussions were changed to be around our own professions.  If you were a golf course architect and asked to participate in a competition in which you were not going to be paid, but somebody would make a lot of money off of the competetition, there were only 4 days to complete the competition and if it rained like crazy and your design plans were covered with mud not at your doing and your competitors were not, but you couldn't clean your plans, and somebody told you this was great for the profession of golf course architects but you might humiliate yourself because of the ruined designs how might we respond...?

My other question is for those you don't like Celtic, what is it specifically from a design point of view that you do not like?

[John Moore II]

My other question is for those you don't like Celtic, what is it specifically from a design point of view that you do not like?

I should say that it is generally not liked because the course itself is not unlike any thousand other courses around the world or the Isles. I think in general, there is a desire among those here to see the course played on the BEST courses, the most unique courses. But from what I see of the course, there is very little that makes it different from a course like Loch Lomond, or The K Club, etc. Its a very American course, so to speak and with the volume of great links, heathland and ancient parkland courses available in GB&I, it makes little sense to play the course on a manufactured, manicured swamp.

[JNC Lyon]

I'm always curious  if these discussions were changed to be around our own professions.  If you were a golf course architect and asked to participate in a competition in which you were not going to be paid, but somebody would make a lot of money off of the competetition, there were only 4 days to complete the competition and if it rained like crazy and your design plans were covered with mud not at your doing and your competitors were not, but you couldn't clean your plans, and somebody told you this was great for the profession of golf course architects but you might humiliate yourself because of the ruined designs how might we respond...?

My other question is for those you don't like Celtic, what is it specifically from a design point of view that you do not like?

I guess I would feel pretty great if I was (A) designing golf courses to represent my country and (B) already making millions of dollars each year as a designer.

[Garland Bayley]

The lack of fairness as regards natural conditions coupled with the extreme fairness as regards self-policing make golf a different sport from any other and provide much of its character-building qualities. There is no difference between a divot and a gust of wind - both happen and need to be contended with. Is it fair to hit a perfect shot, but have it deflected off the green into a dismal lie by the flagstick? No, it's not. It was a great shot and it got severely punished. Is it fair if your opponent shanks one into the hole? Hardly. But it is golf. And if you can deal with that, you're a golfer.

Ulrich

You cant do anything about wind Ulrich, but you could do something about a divot. The rules of golf have continued to move towards fairness for a long time. Is there anyone here that would like to see a return of the stymie?

Adrian

Why do you insist on refering to your likes and dislikes about the rules as an issue of fairness?  Do you know what the word fair means?  

...

Off course Adrian knows what fair means. It means when something bad happens to him it is unfair. When something bad happens to the other players, that he doesn't know about, then that's the way the cookie crumbles.

Adrian,

Bugger off.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()