[JNC Lyon]

Constant rain, swampy conditions on a poor inland course, lift, clean, and cheat, play slower than drying paint.  This Ryder Cup is absolutely horrendous to watch.  Is it the least interesting Ryder Cup in history?  Would this sort of Ryder Cup have occurred if the venue was a well-draining links?

[David_Tepper]

JNC Lyon -

Worst Ryder Cup ever?

Just for the record, please remind us how many Ryder Cups you have actually seen.

DT

[Mac Plumart]

I'm liking it.   

What can I say...so many great story lines and one for the history books.

The coverage I am watching right now has Tiger and Stricker 5 down.  Will Tiger quit like a punk or will he dig down deep and give it a run?  Win or lose...who cares...what is he made of?  I'd love to see him battle!

Rory's first Ryder Cup...Rickie's first Ryder Cup...I think these are both BIG time future stars...what are they going to do?

The course...so many issues...is it a good course?  Did they pick the appropriate course to play the Ryder Cup on in October?  Why not a true links?  The Fed Ex Cup f**ked the timing up...will the Fed Ex Cup go away sooner rather than later?

Man...I could go on and on.

Enjoy the moment for what it is...that is what I say.

[JNC Lyon]

JNC Lyon -

Worst Ryder Cup ever?

Just for the record, please remind us how many Ryder Cups you have actually seen.

DT

I have not seen too many, being the young lad that I am.  However, I doubt the play has ever been this slow in Ryder Cup play, nor has the venue ever been so mediocre and contrary to the spirit of British golf.  I'm guessing there weren't too many Ryder Cups before 1995 where lift, clean, and cheat was the order of the day.  We played through pouring rain at Mountain Ridge, and never ONCE did we think about cleaning our golf balls in the fairway.  I think the format for this Ryder Cup has been abysmal.

[JNC Lyon]

I'm liking it.  

What can I say...so many great story lines and one for the history books.

The coverage I am watching right now has Tiger and Stricker 5 down.  Will Tiger quit like a punk or will he dig down deep and give it a run?  Win or lose...who cares...what is he made of?  I'd love to see him battle!

Rory's first Ryder Cup...Rickie's first Ryder Cup...I think these are both BIG time future stars...what are they going to do?

The course...so many issues...is it a good course?  Did they pick the appropriate course to play the Ryder Cup on in October?  Why not a true links?  The Fed Ex Cup f**ked the timing up...will the Fed Ex Cup go away sooner rather than later?

Man...I could go on and on.

Enjoy the moment for what it is...that is what I say.

Mac, I see the wisdom in your optimistic outlook here.  However, I think we need to be critical of the venue and the format of the tournament.  Otherwise, things will never improve.  We are seeing a type of golf that flies in the face of every traditional aspect of golf that has made the game great.  I think the way this Ryder Cup is being run is a giant middle finger to the traditional game of golf that we know and love.

[Mac Plumart]

I agree.  My line of questioning regarding the course and the timing of the tournament and the Fed Ex Cup suggestes they all need to be critically analyzed.  

Is golf totally off it rocker for the almighty dollar?  If so, what fundamental roots are they bastardizing to make that money?

These questions need to be discussed.


BUT perhaps at the moment, we can still enjoy the competition taking place and watch how the leaders and those currently behind handle themselves.  Do they compete...do they roll over...do the do something miraculous...do they close the door?

[JNC Lyon]

I agree.  My line of questioning regarding the course and the timing of the tournament and the Fed Ex Cup suggestes they all need to be critically analyzed.
 
I suppose the Fedex Cup timing throws things off a bit.  However, the Ryder Cup has usually been conducted at this time of year, give or take a week or two.  The problem is that the shift to inland courses brings rainy Ryder Cups every year in the UK.  Every Ryder Cup in the UK since 1993 has been rain-soaked, no?  On the other hand, a links is playable in all sorts of weather, and conditions will generally be better under harsher weather.  I'm making generalizations here, but I think early October in inland Wales is not the best time for a tournament.

Is golf totally off it rocker for the almighty dollar?   YES!

If so, what fundamental roots are they bastardizing to make that money?

Firm and fast conditions, good golf course architecture, playing the ball as it lies, playing in a timely manner.  These are all specific examples from this week.  In general, the game has gotten slower and more expensive, and we see more courses like Celtic Manor and fewer like Brora.

These questions need to be discussed.

[JNC Lyon]

Not-so-fun fact from Geoff Shackelford's website: The average four-ball match lasting 18 holes took 5 hours and 58 minutes.





 

What the hell are those guys doing out there?  They hit fewer shots than any golfers on the planet, and it takes four of them 6 hours to play 18 holes.  This is simply inexplicable.

[Mark Pearce]

John,

Please explain what is wrong with the format?  Your other complaints I understand and, mostly, agree in part.  The format, though, I just don't understand.

[Mac Plumart]

JNC...I agree.

[JNC Lyon]

John,

Please explain what is wrong with the format?  Your other complaints I understand and, mostly, agree in part.  The format, though, I just don't understand.

Maybe format is the wrong word for it.  I don't like the lift, clean, and place rule that they are using.  I would count that as part of the format.  I don't like the slow pace of play, which I also view as part of the event.

I suppose I don't have problem with the switch from Four Matches a session to Six matches a session, though I always thought one of the interesting things about the Ryder Cup was choosing who to play and who to sit.

[Brent Carlson]

The only thing I would like to see is a Ryder Cup played at a links course in Europe.  Portmarnock would be great.  Regardless the RC is still interesting to watch.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I agree, its the worst one. They have to Lift clean place though. If a golf ball gathers a lump of mud that aint no fun. The conditions are causing a lot of unforced errors (def wrong term) and the 18th has not really worked, not too many 4's yet. You know maybe they will look at the Ryder Cup as a dying animal and see no reason to continue and let it generate £200M for the sport and go to Dornoch for a tenth of the money or maybe the PGA wil join GCA and introduce hickories for one of the sessions.

[Matt_Ward]

JNC:

Your youthful memory leaves out a few things.

The Belfry is an "inland" UK course and they didn't have the myriad of weather issues seen with Celtic Manor.

The late season start canbe fixed -- I suggested holding the Ryder Cup in the middle of the season -- sort of like what baseball does with the all-star game now.

Let me point out that weather is a fickle item -- it could easily pour if the event were held in July or August.

Regarding venues -- I would hope that those naive sorts who think a traditional links will be used are clearly forgetting the magnitude of the $$ involved and how high bidders are determined to get the event for their own course(s).

Slow play is a problem -- but I have personally attended several Ryder Cup matches and never were any a speed demon affair.

Last item -- pick and clean is simply an admission that mudballs don't lend themselves to any real shotmaking. I have no issue with it since it applies to all.

Adrian:

I only wish the $$ could be taken out of the equation.

Alas -- that is wishing for something that will not happen.

[Mike Hendren]

I wish someone who has seen/played the golf course would weigh in.  On television it looks pedestrian.  "As my Father would say" I wouldn't walk across the street to play it.  Surely there's more to it than meets the TV eye?

Mike

[Dan King]

Adrian_Stiff writes:
They have to Lift clean place though.

Huh? They had a choice of playing golf or lift, clean and cheat. They chose lift, clean and cheat. I'd rather they played golf.

If a golf ball gathers a lump of mud that aint no fun.

It ain't suppose to be fun. It is supposed to be entertaining. Who isn't entertained by seeing one of the greatest golfers in the world trying to hit a shot with a mud-covered ball?

Golf is played in nature, with all its inconsistencies. The Tours are turning the game into watching players at the driving range. Bring back golf.

Cheers,
Dan King

You can talk about strategy all you want, but what really matters is resilency. On the last nine holes of the Masters or Open, there's going to come at least one point when you want to throw yourself in the nearest trash can and disappear. You know you can't hide. It's like your walking down the fairway naked. The gallery knows what you've done, every other player knows and worst of all, you know. That's when you find out if you're a real competitor.
 --Hale Irwin

[JNC Lyon]

Matt,

I know Belfry did not have the extreme weather we've had this week.  However, the last couple Ryder Cups there have been dreary at best.  I'm also guessing the Belfry did not have anything resembling firm and fast conditions.

Matt and Adrian,

Lift, clean, and place, quite simply, has no place in the game.  The pros get uneasy when any sort of "luck" is brought into play, even though luck is an integral part of golf.  Furthermore, when a ball lands in a wet fairway, there is no guarantee that the ball will pick up mud.  Even if it does, there are ways to judge how the ball will come off.  Players should not get a perfect lie every time they are in the fairway.  If that's what people think, then we should be playing the game off astroturf.

I've gone out in January thaws in Rochester and played the ball down, no questions asked.  Playing the ball down, even under the muddiest of conditions, ensures that things like "thinking" and "rub of the green" remain essential parts of the game.  Lift, clean and place takes these aspects of the game and throws them in the garbage.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian_Stiff writes:
They have to Lift clean place though.

Huh? They had a choice of playing golf or lift, clean and cheat. They chose lift, clean and cheat. I'd rather they played golf.

If a golf ball gathers a lump of mud that aint no fun.

It ain't suppose to be fun. It is supposed to be entertaining. Who isn't entertained by seeing one of the greatest golfers in the world trying to hit a shot with a mud-covered ball?

Golf is played in nature, with all its inconsistencies. The Tours are turning the game into watching players at the driving range. Bring back golf.

Cheers,
Dan King

You can talk about strategy all you want, but what really matters is resilency. On the last nine holes of the Masters or Open, there's going to come at least one point when you want to throw yourself in the nearest trash can and disappear. You know you can't hide. It's like your walking down the fairway naked. The gallery knows what you've done, every other player knows and worst of all, you know. That's when you find out if you're a real competitor.
 --Hale Irwin

That might just be the craziest post. You cant play with a lump of mud on the ball!!!!!

[JNC Lyon]

Adrian_Stiff writes:
They have to Lift clean place though.

Huh? They had a choice of playing golf or lift, clean and cheat. They chose lift, clean and cheat. I'd rather they played golf.

If a golf ball gathers a lump of mud that aint no fun.

It ain't suppose to be fun. It is supposed to be entertaining. Who isn't entertained by seeing one of the greatest golfers in the world trying to hit a shot with a mud-covered ball?

Golf is played in nature, with all its inconsistencies. The Tours are turning the game into watching players at the driving range. Bring back golf.

Cheers,
Dan King

You can talk about strategy all you want, but what really matters is resilency. On the last nine holes of the Masters or Open, there's going to come at least one point when you want to throw yourself in the nearest trash can and disappear. You know you can't hide. It's like your walking down the fairway naked. The gallery knows what you've done, every other player knows and worst of all, you know. That's when you find out if you're a real competitor.
 --Hale Irwin

I agree 100 percent.

[JNC Lyon]

Adrian_Stiff writes:
They have to Lift clean place though.

Huh? They had a choice of playing golf or lift, clean and cheat. They chose lift, clean and cheat. I'd rather they played golf.

If a golf ball gathers a lump of mud that aint no fun.

It ain't suppose to be fun. It is supposed to be entertaining. Who isn't entertained by seeing one of the greatest golfers in the world trying to hit a shot with a mud-covered ball?

Golf is played in nature, with all its inconsistencies. The Tours are turning the game into watching players at the driving range. Bring back golf.

Cheers,
Dan King

You can talk about strategy all you want, but what really matters is resilency. On the last nine holes of the Masters or Open, there's going to come at least one point when you want to throw yourself in the nearest trash can and disappear. You know you can't hide. It's like your walking down the fairway naked. The gallery knows what you've done, every other player knows and worst of all, you know. That's when you find out if you're a real competitor.
 --Hale Irwin

That might just be the craziest post. You cant play with a lump of mud on the ball!!!!!

Adrian,

Please see my post.  The ball will not pick up a lump of mud every time it lands in the fairway.  And yes, you actually can play with mud on the ball.  It's pretty fun sometimes, actually.  Golf is an outdoor sport that is played within nature and not in an air-conditioned sports dome.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Matt,

I know Belfry did not have the extreme weather we've had this week.  However, the last couple Ryder Cups there have been dreary at best.  I'm also guessing the Belfry did not have anything resembling firm and fast conditions.

Matt and Adrian,

Lift, clean, and place, quite simply, has no place in the game.  The pros get uneasy when any sort of "luck" is brought into play, even though luck is an integral part of golf.  Furthermore, when a ball lands in a wet fairway, there is no guarantee that the ball will pick up mud.  Even if it does, there are ways to judge how the ball will come off.  Players should not get a perfect lie every time they are in the fairway.  If that's what people think, then we should be playing the game off astroturf.

I've gone out in January thaws in Rochester and played the ball down, no questions asked.  Playing the ball down, even under the muddiest of conditions, ensures that things like "thinking" and "rub of the green" remain essential parts of the game.  Lift, clean and place takes these aspects of the game and throws them in the garbage.

Consective dumbo post. We play 6 months of the year in the UK with lift clean and place.

[Matt_Ward]

JNC:

The concept of firm and fast can never be guaranteed -- short of using a pure links course.

You mentioned the weather and if you check the stats -- the last rainout happened in beautiful / dry Spain.

Luck plays a big factor -- beyond preparation.

In regards to lift and clean -- the sheer practicality sometimes demands it. Those purists who insist on globs of mud attached to the ball need to get a life. People want to watch shots being played where success is doable.

The Ryder Cup only happens once every two years -- when you get very wet conditions one has to be sensible to get the event concluded and to do so with the thought in providing quality entertainment. Mudballs don't cut it for me.

If you wish to play the ball down in sub zero weather with wind and all the rest -- I say this -- kudos to you. Unfortunately, you're not a Ryder Cup player with a TV audience that wants to be entertained.

[JNC Lyon]

Matt,

I know Belfry did not have the extreme weather we've had this week.  However, the last couple Ryder Cups there have been dreary at best.  I'm also guessing the Belfry did not have anything resembling firm and fast conditions.

Matt and Adrian,

Lift, clean, and place, quite simply, has no place in the game.  The pros get uneasy when any sort of "luck" is brought into play, even though luck is an integral part of golf.  Furthermore, when a ball lands in a wet fairway, there is no guarantee that the ball will pick up mud.  Even if it does, there are ways to judge how the ball will come off.  Players should not get a perfect lie every time they are in the fairway.  If that's what people think, then we should be playing the game off astroturf.

I've gone out in January thaws in Rochester and played the ball down, no questions asked.  Playing the ball down, even under the muddiest of conditions, ensures that things like "thinking" and "rub of the green" remain essential parts of the game.  Lift, clean and place takes these aspects of the game and throws them in the garbage.

Consective dumbo post. We play 6 months of the year in the UK with lift clean and place.

Adrian, What months?  I played from January to May over there and played the ball down on both inland and links courses.

Matt, we are not "insisting on globs of mud attached to the ball."  We are insisting that people PLAY THE BALL AS IT LIES.  This tenant is one of the basic rules of golf.  Is it so hard to do this?  If it is too difficult, try bowling, where you get clean your ball after every shot.

[Martin Toal]

The event has slipped a week or two in the season and the days close in rapidly at this time of year. I hate the Belfry so I think the Twenty Ten course is better than that, although that may not be saying much.

There does appear to be a goodly amount of good golf and drama despite the poor weather and mediocre course so the event is offering me plenty of things to watch.

[Adrian_Stiff]

We have winter rules from about November 1st through to April 1st sometimes they are extended well to the end of April, sometimes they get introduced sometime in October. Rains a lot in the UK, no golf course is immune. One of the main reasons to place the ball is to conserve the fairways in the more dormant times. We dont want people digging the ball out of tight lies. A lot of the northern clubs even have plastic mats for that reason, soggy courses the ball plugs or rolls a yard or so with a brown splodge, sometimes you get a worm cast attach.

This Ryder Cup aint a good un, but its had bad luck and all the decsions taken to get this finshed fairy and on time are the right ones.

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