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RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Recovery of Huntingdon Valley GC
« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2010, 03:34:36 PM »
Mike, I do get your sense, or at least I think I understand what you are getting at.  Tom has started this thread because there probably is a need to educate various levels of people that may be club members or officers that do read these pages here on GCA.com, and nothing gets them in a tizzy more than concrns about conditions on their golf courses.  One can sympathise that it is human nature to want to protect your membership /dues investment.  And, one has to take into account that it is simply unrealistic that most typical members don't have the time nor inclination to actually learn much about turf management.  They have lives to live, and why would they take much time to try and understand the intracacies of turf management on their course, they pays their dues and makes their comments, criticism, praise, or whatever.

But, those that do take a more indepth interest and ask or seek appointment to greens committees and whatever oversight the club has to interact with the super, do have some obligation to seek more education, and make the effort to seek out answers, particularly when this sort of thing happens.

I guess Tom is doing a good thing by bringing this discussion here, and while it does have that sort of underlying feel of being an airing of dirty laundry, it SHOULD not be taken in that vain, but a chance to learn something.  I have always felt that it is a particular short coming of the ownership or membership, oversight capacity of golf course management with the supers, that there seems to always be this tension or fear that one wrong move can be so negative on a turf professional's career. 


So, more power and praise to these guys at HVCC to be willing to come on here and discuss, and hopefully not in the vain of "airing dirty laundry".
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Recovery of Huntingdon Valley GC
« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2010, 04:07:57 PM »
Mayday. Its not dirty laundry. Its a rare case of circunstances conspiring to create an unwinnable situation. Being out front and open leads to less B.S. Crying down the critics of what is clearly a special place. Sharing info on an open forum of this type shows how special individuals and organizations can be. 
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Kyle Harris

Re: The Recovery of Huntingdon Valley GC
« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2010, 05:25:05 PM »
  I don't think they should air their dirty laundry here.

There is plenty to be learned from what is already known and plenty to know from what is still unknown.

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Recovery of Huntingdon Valley GC
« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2010, 05:38:55 PM »
 This forum has serious problems with fact finding. It works best for opinions.
AKA Mayday

Kyle Harris

Re: The Recovery of Huntingdon Valley GC
« Reply #29 on: October 03, 2010, 05:45:07 PM »
This forum has serious problems with fact finding. It works best for opinions.

Mike,

I tend to agree.

That's why I've worded my post as such above. Perhaps an article will come out of it.

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Recovery of Huntingdon Valley GC
« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2010, 05:47:35 PM »
 Kyle,

     I thought you had gone philosophical on us.
AKA Mayday

TEPaul

Re: The Recovery of Huntingdon Valley GC
« Reply #31 on: October 03, 2010, 05:54:33 PM »
Mayday:

Don't worry about it. They asked me to start a thread. If they hadn't I wouldn't have. This isn't supposed to be about dirty laundry, it's supposed to be an opportunity to learn something. People who offer to let others learn something from the analysis of a problem like this are real generous in my book.

However, this is not supposed to be JUST an analysis of what went wrong; it should also be an analysis of the recovery itself.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 05:59:15 PM by TEPaul »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Recovery of Huntingdon Valley GC
« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2010, 12:14:34 PM »
Well, we got a pretty satisfactory answer to the question of what killed it and how there really wasn't much that could have been done to prevent such a perfect storm.  But, the only guy that came close to my other questions above was Bradley Anderson asking about if they saw more Bent grass surviving and coming back as a percentage of the polystand. 

My understanding from Scott Anderson's great interview some years ago was that his cultural practices of lean and mean promoted one of the heartiest stands of turf in the business that promoted or played into the ability to starve it lean and mean and have a great amount of the season at firm and fast conditions.

So, my questions remain, now that a great percentage of the turf sward was lost.  What cultural practices are going into the recovery?  Did they slit seed a particular cultivar of bent into the greens, deep tine the FWs or everything wall to wall, and overseed along with the top dressing?  Did they just aerate greens traditionally, airject aeration, verticut and top dress and let nature take its course with a bit of fert blend to promote recovery?  What? 

And, if new seed was introduced, do they anticipate a long seasoning and hardening of the plants to get back to the heartiness that Scott had cultivated for many years?
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Recovery of Huntingdon Valley GC
« Reply #33 on: October 04, 2010, 12:46:20 PM »
Tom,

Not sure what "they" asked you to do, but I think your effort would best be produced in interview form. Asking these questions of Scott doesn't make much sense in here for the obvious reason that Scott isn't here much, if at all. The first 32 or so posts of the thread pretty much prove that.


Does "wet wilt" occur on the crowned areas of the golf course?

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Recovery of Huntingdon Valley GC
« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2010, 05:20:21 PM »
Tom:  I think your question #1 should be broken down into two questions.  1a. -  What happened?  1b.  Why at HVCC and not at any of the many other clubs in the area?

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Recovery of Huntingdon Valley GC
« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2010, 08:28:47 PM »
Dick. Has it been established that the grass did in fact die? Closing the course seems prudent if it was on life suppoprt?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Recovery of Huntingdon Valley GC
« Reply #36 on: October 04, 2010, 08:55:15 PM »
Tom:  I think your question #1 should be broken down into two questions.  1a. -  What happened?  1b.  Why at HVCC and not at any of the many other clubs in the area?


That and if they already dont have XGD drainlines in their greens are they going to consider it now to be prepared for the worst in the future by facilitating more positive drainage out of the greens?

Rory Connaughton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Recovery of Huntingdon Valley GC
« Reply #37 on: October 05, 2010, 08:19:39 AM »
Jim:

  To answer your question regarding other clubs in the area, I think its safe to say that many many clubs in SE PA were in imminent danger during the second half of July and beginning of August.  At Lancaster, we shut our front for two weeks and our back for a week within 24 hours of the reports out of HVCC.  I am certain that supers in the region knew what they were facing long before us laymen had a full appreciation for the potential consequences of temps hovering close to 100, ground moisture and humidity which never abated but the events at HVCC got EVERYONE's attention, in part because everyone knows how good Scott Anderson is.  For the first time in my memory, our membership was fully behind taking the course out of play as a protective measure.  My guess is that other supers in the region had the same level of support.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Recovery of Huntingdon Valley GC
« Reply #38 on: October 05, 2010, 10:13:10 AM »
Definitely the beginning of the spiral...

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Recovery of Huntingdon Valley GC
« Reply #39 on: October 08, 2010, 11:52:32 AM »
Is there a reason this thread has stalled? Why Kyle hasn't formulated his information?

I'd still like to know what the suggestions were once their problem was diagnosed.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Kyle Harris

Re: The Recovery of Huntingdon Valley GC
« Reply #40 on: October 08, 2010, 12:38:17 PM »
Is there a reason this thread has stalled? Why Kyle hasn't formulated his information?

I'd still like to know what the suggestions were once their problem was diagnosed.

I just started the second year of the Rutgers 20 week Turf Course. My focus is there for the time being.

Michael Blake

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Recovery of Huntingdon Valley GC
« Reply #41 on: October 08, 2010, 04:21:10 PM »
My vote is that Scott Anderson does a presentation regarding the entire situation at Tom Pauls's GCA Holiday Barnfest 2010...if Tom in fact has another one this year.

I don't see much good coming from this thread unless the man in charge (with all due respect to Kyle) is here posting answers to everyone's questions.




Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Recovery of Huntingdon Valley GC
« Reply #42 on: October 08, 2010, 11:35:21 PM »
I'm forging a better response but I can explain wet wilt in a simple analogy.

My bad. I thought you were making a forward looking statement.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Rory Connaughton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Recovery of Huntingdon Valley GC
« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2010, 09:56:51 AM »
The Flynn Invitational (which involves approximately 10 clubs with Flynn courses from across the country) was held at HVCC on Thursday and Friday. The entire event was outstanding. Although there were some small areas where evidence of damage was visible, they were few and far between.  In fact had you not been aware that there had been issues, they would have not been noticeable.  Given what the course has been through and the torrential rains that we have had in Eastern PA during the last week the quality of the conditioning was outstanding.  Greens were still reasonably firm and very fast.

This was my first visit to HVCC and I cannot say enough about the course.  Of the Flynn's I have played it is far and away the most demanding tee to green.  The scale of the property is incredible.  The event was played in a two club wind which made for a long long course when coupled with the moist conditions. 

Not sure that the club would ever be interested but the course is definitely worthy of a major men's championship. 



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