[Phil_the_Author]

David,

One last try at reasoning with you.

You wrote, "It won't end for me until I know what happened to the best of my ability.  Given that Wayne and TEPaul have shown a completely unwillingness to honestly consider and present the information, I doubt it will end in 2013, at least not if they have anything to do with updating the "history."    Given that my only interest is getting to the truth, I've got nothing to lose and nothing but time.    It is really a pity that Merion is going to have to be dealing with this garbage in 2013.   These two jokers are really doing the club a disservice by playing these absurd games."

If your "only interest" is in actually really "getting to the truth" and "these two jokers" are truly "obfuscating and misrepresenting the historical record" and have been doing so "for years" and "they have also been acting in direct contravention of the stated archival policies of both Merion Golf Club  and Merion Cricket Club" then you can do but ONE THING. Go to Merion's Board and MAKE YOUR CASE.

If you won't do that then your statement has no merit and all you are doing is throwing mud around. If you want the "truth" then go and get it. If Tom Paul has been wrong about everything else, he has definitely been right on that point; that YOU need to go to Merion. One thing is for certain, they aren't stupid, ignorant and misled people on their Board and I am quite certain that if you present an accurate case they will listen. You want to see the "truth" of what is in their records? That is the only way it will happen.

You've been doing too much crapping... get off the pot and finally do something!

[DMoriarty]

Phillip,

My statement has merit because it is an accurate if mild depiction of the way they have behaved.  You know it.  

As for my dealings with MGC, MCC, or any other club, I don't discuss such things on a public website, nor do I try to use such things for rhetorical gain.

[Phil_the_Author]

David,

You answered as I expected...

[Dan Herrmann]

Philip - Amen my friend, Amen.

David - I really like quixotic pursuits, but you've really gone beyond into an area that serves no purpose other than to irritate others.  Your writings don't change anything.  I really think you should conduct academic research elsewhere.  Posting on a golf architecture isn't exactly historical research.

[DMoriarty]

Phillip,

I answered honestly.  If that isn't good enough for you, then perhaps you need to reconsider your expectations.

________________________________

Dan,

I have neither respect for nor interest in your opinion of how I should spend my time.   Aren't you running late for cheerleading practice?  

[Phil_the_Author]

David,

I neither accused or intimated that you did anything but answer honestly. Maybe YOU should examine your own expectations...

[Tom MacWood]

David,

Then again, for all we know, if they wrote of preparing five plans (which even your wording equates with routings) then they prepared five plans.  And, for all we know, when they talk about looking at CBM's plans of GBI holes, that's what they were looking at, and they weren't parsing words between plans, surveys and sketches, which I think is just a bit of a stretch on your part, but consistent with how you have made your many arguements.

Once again, IMHO, if they speak of five plans and CBM picking one routing, the simplest explanation is that the said generally what they meant, not that they said something they didn't mean that requires the interpretation of a lawyer to understand it.  Just MHO.

And, BTW, I agree with Jim Sullivan.  TMac is suggesting that Barker routed the course despite never being one mention of him ever advising MCC.  

BTW2,  Did anyone actually ever call CBM an advisor or did they just thank him for his advice?  I seriously doubt CBM would have allowed that title, given he never took money for his work and may have been worried somewhat about the amateur status, as has been discussed.  And, not having a title may (but not with certainty) imply a less formal relationship than you suggest, and one more in keeping with the club designing and him advising on a less formal basis.  Or, I may just be parsing words in the spirit of this debate.

A few thoughts: you wouldn't know if Barker was mentioned or not because the minutes are not available for public scrutiny; if the course was routed while the land was in the hands of Haverford Development there would be a good reason why he wouldn't be mentioned in MCC minutes; generally speaking I don't believe there was much of an appreciation for the routing process at that time.

To my knowledge there is no mention of anyone staking out or routing the course in the minutes, so my explanation is as good as any.

[Dan Herrmann]

David,
Ok - no cheerleading - What exactly is your goal?

I'm assuming it's historical accuracy, right?  If so, what methods of research are you using besides sticking virtual needles in the eyes of your intended targets?

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom the Mac,

I've got to ask, you stated, "A few thoughts: you wouldn't know if Barker was mentioned or not because the minutes are not available for public scrutiny"

Therefore of what value to the discussion is your statement, "To my knowledge there is no mention of anyone staking out or routing the course in the minutes..."?

[Mike Cirba]

Phil/Dan,

You"re wasting your time. 

[Tom MacWood]

My statement would only have value to those interested in discovering who did what at Merion, so in your case it would have very little value.

[Tom MacWood]

And, BTW, I agree with Jim Sullivan.  TMac is suggesting that Barker routed the course despite never being one mention of him ever advising MCC.  

If the golf course was routed prior to MCC taking ownership of the land why would you expect them to mention him? As I said before I do not believe there is any mention of anyone routing the golf course in the minutes. The minutes are not usually a blow by blow account of who did what in the development of golf course. There aren't normally entries every week or even every month. In the case we have minutes from November 1910 followed by an entry in April 1911. Are there any entries in between those dates? That was a pretty important period.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Would Mike Kaiser say he designed those golf courses with some advice from Doak?

Sully,

Mike Keiser had prior experience with another course.

The parties and the relationship between Keiser and Doak differs in some ways from the relationship between the Committee and CBM.
In other ways it's quite similar

Keiser had the land and sought the advice of Doak on how to best design a quality golf course on that land.

How different is that from the Committee and CBM ?

[Tom MacWood]

It was reported in the Philadelphia Press on 11/24/1910 that Barker had been secured to layout the new course for Merion. On December 1st 1910 it was reported in the NY Tribune (and NY Times) that Barker was off on a three week trip and before he returns several new courses would be staked out. I believe MCC took control of the land in January 1911. The Wilson construction committee was formed sometime in early 1911. Wilson's letters to Piper & Oakley begin in February 1911 and leave one with the impression a golf course had already been routed/staked out.

Why Barker disappeared from the scene is a complete mystery to me. Typically he would go back to England in December and not return until around March, but there is no record of him leaving the US during this period. I don't know what happened to him during this time because there is no mention of him, or any of his activities, in America during these months. When he remerges in the Spring of 1911 he is no longer at GCGC and is now the pro at Rumson.

[Patrick_Mucci]

The minutes say when Mac came down and looked at the plans (five) and the ground itself and approved one. 

The committee created the plans.

Mike,

Did they create the plans during their visit to NGLA ?

Did they create the plans shortly after and as a result of their visit to NGLA.

Don't be so quick to rule out other scenarios

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

You so self-righteously said, "My statement would only have value to those interested in discovering who did what at Merion, so in your case it would have very little value..."

Your statement has no value on any face since you stated prior to making it that "the minutes are not available for public scrutiny" therefore since you clearly haven't seen the minutes and so saying, "To my knowledge there is no mention of anyone staking out or routing the course in the minutes..." has NO VALUE to anyone regardless of whatever motives you want to ascribe to them.

By the way, I am VERY interested in who did what at Merion. Of course, are you going to say I am "bluffing" once again? Or are you willing to accept my word at face value this time?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Are you or David ever going to actually do more research on this or present more factual information?   

We know how you both "feel", and thanks for sharing, but how about some actual evidence to abck up these wild-assed statements?

Vtw..I'm sitting in the Hamptons and hoping to find evidence of what was discussed at that March 1911 meeting.

[DMoriarty]

Phillip,  I never accused you of accusing me of anything.  You sure do have trouble understanding my posts, though.

David,
Ok - no cheerleading - What exactly is your goal?

I'm assuming it's historical accuracy, right?  If so, what methods of research are you using besides sticking virtual needles in the eyes of your intended targets?

I see now you are pretending to ask me questions to set up your own insults.  You are getting classier every day.

Constantly jumping to their defense no matter how abhorrent their conduct is just as bad as the cheerleading, if not worse.

[Phil_the_Author]

David,

I NEVER said that you did... It is YOU who has a hard time understanding a simple sentence...

[Tom MacWood]

We know how you both "feel", and thanks for sharing, but how about some actual evidence to abck up these wild-assed statements?

Mike
Wild-assed statements? What is wild-assed about this?

It was reported in the Philadelphia Press on 11/24/1910 that Barker had been secured to layout the new course for Merion. On December 1st 1910 it was reported in the NY Tribune (and NY Times) that Barker was off on a three week trip and before he returns several new courses would be staked out. I believe MCC took control of the land in January 1911. The Wilson construction committee was formed sometime in early 1911. Wilson's letters to Piper & Oakley begin in February 1911 and leave one with the impression a golf course had already been routed/staked out.

[DMoriarty]

Mike Cirba.

There you go again pretending we are making things up. Sleazy.   Just as with my claim that they were working on the lay out plan at NGLA, all my claims have a sound basis in fact.  If they don't, I try to point that out.  

You apparently haven't grasped this yet, but the facts here are not on your side, if they ever were.  

Here is a little exercise for you to help you get the hint.  List out all of the mentions Merion's Board makes of Hugh Wilson before CBM chose the final routing, and then do the same thing for Macdonald and Whigham.   Does that tell you anything?  Because it ought to.

Let me get you started.  Below is a list of every mention of Hugh Wilson made by Merion's Board during the design process:
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
That is it.  

Now you try.   And just the facts.  List out all the mentions the Board made of M&W so we can compare . . .

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

Didn't you once post a piece about when Barker started play in a southern tournament during that trip?  From memory, it seems like it was December 5, but I am really stretching the noodle to recall it.

The implications are obvious.  If the board presented that plan (without golf holes) on Nov 15, and it was reported on Nov 24 that Barker was retained, it would seem he would have needed to get er done pretty quick if he was leaving on Dec 1 as reported.  (and if he was competing on the fifth, he would have had to have left on the first or second given train schedules)

I still don't agree, given the MCC documents, but I can see where those newspaper articles would have you looking in that direction for some corroborating facts.  But, it still doesn't explain the April letter depicting five plans being drawn after the visit to NGLA.

[Jeff_Brauer]

David,

Didn't Hugh Wilson write the report presented to the Board in April 1911, as read by others?  In that circumstance, of course they wouldn't mention him, as he was doing the reporting.

Also, they did throw that nice dinner for him and that was recorded.  I know, I know. You will say its for all the construction work he did, and of course, that is a big part of it.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom the Mac,

About Mr. Barker, you stated, "On December 1st 1910 it was reported in the NY Tribune (and NY Times) that Barker was off on a three week trip and before he returns several new courses would be staked out..."

You also stated, "Why Barker disappeared from the scene is a complete mystery to me. Typically he would go back to England in December and not return until around March, but there is no record of him leaving the US during this period. I don't know what happened to him during this time because there is no mention of him, or any of his activities, in America during these months."

Lets see if I can help you out on this...

From December 6/7 (I'm giving a day of wiggle here because on the 5th the AJC simply said that he would be attending) till the 12th, he was in ATLANTA where he only broke the course record for 72 holes at East Lake by 14 shots! Now where else might he have been during this time? Oh yes, was there a course further south in Georgia that a pretty piss-poor researcher once told you about that he designed? Maybe he was there?

Hope that helps a little. By the way, I'm still waiting for you to answer my generous email... Don't tell me you didn't read it... By the way, there is a more than a little mention of his activities during this time period. I am a bit surprised that you haven't found any. Would you like some more help?

[Tom MacWood]

The Atlanta tournament concluded on 12/10 so assuming he played some practice rounds he could arrived on the 5th. The December 1 article did not report when he departed NY, only that he was off on a three week trip.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()