[Tom MacWood]

"Tom,
So you think NGLA was the primary reason the Merion guys went to Southampton?"



Sully:

Of course I do; otherwise they all could've just met for a few days at Ardmore and developed plans for Merion East right there but they didn't do that did they? They went to NGLA to look at Macdonald's drawings of famous holes abroad and then the next day they studied NGLA's architecture and its princlples.

As Jeffrey Brauer is often wont to say----sometimes the simplest and most obvious answer is the right answer and that just happens to be what they recorded.

But if you guys want to split hairs and speculate forever then I guess that's cool too!

The question is was he there as the lead of the design committee or the construction committee. Was he looking for design ideas or looking at models he would be responsible for building?

[DMoriarty]

TePaul,

That is actually one of those obvious points I don't think anyone made before here.  IF the goal was for CBM to route the golf course, on site at Merion would have been the appropriate venue, not NGLA.

Jeff, I guess you forgot that CBM had already been to Merion in the summer of 1910, and he very likely had a contour map as soon as Merion got one made.  They'd had to have been fools to not send him one after he all but requested one.  Regardless, he had seen the land, so my guess is that the issue became how to communicate to Merion what they needed to do.  That was probably not an easy task, given their stated level of knowledge and experience.  

We know the importance CBM placed on seeing and understanding the concepts before he build NGLA, so it ought not to be a surprise that he had the committee up to NGLA -- to see the concepts so they could begin to understand what they would try and build.   If you think Wilson's Redan and Alps were poor imitations, imagine how bad they would have been had CBM not shown them NGLA first!  (I remember the first time someone tried to explain the Redan to me.  It didn't totally click until I had seen one.)

Also, one of the misleading vestiges of the old disproven legend is that the NGLA tripwas wholly unrelated to CBM's return trip to Merion.  Given that they happened one after another during the key period of the planning process, they ought to be treated together.   In fact, right after the NGLA trip, Wilson wrote to Oakley and noted that CBM would be coming to visit in an about two weeks.   Oakley responded that CBM had told him that CBM was planning to visit Merion in the spring.   The plan seems to have been first for Wilson to go to NGLA to work on the layout, and then for CBM and HJW to come to Merion to make sure they got it correct.   Two trips but part of the same process --the process of planning the layout.

I imagine that you've probably had meetings in your office with associates and then followed up with a site visit to make sure they had it right.  That is very likely what happened here, only I hope your associates are much more qualified than was Hugh Wilson was at the time.
___________________________

Mike Cirba,

You pretend that all they did was give their approval.  You know better.   There were five variations.  Most likely five attempts to make work what CBM had told them to do.   M&W chose between these, and TEPaul repeatedly acknowledged that, according to the minutes, M&W may have even gone outside of these five plans and added their own ideas to the final plan.  Or they may have mixed and matched them until they got it the way they wanted.  In other words, M&W's role was hardly passive.   This is especially so when one considers that they had just gone to NGLA, and the NGLA visit provided them with the impetus to "rearrange the course" and come up with the five variations, anyways.  

In short, it is disingenuous for you to pretend that M&W's role was passive when it comes to the layout.  

This whole thing is a bit of a joke.  If we were dealing with any other course in the world, and we knew that CBM helped choose the land, worked on the layout for two days at NGLA with the construction committee, and then returned to again go over the land so he could determine and select the final layout plan, this would not even be a discussion.   CBM very likely did more at Merion than at some of his own courses!   Yet you guys are still in denial.   Still calling me names, disrespecting me and my work, and claiming I am making this stuff up.    

The truth will come out, even moreso than it already has.  Don't bother apologizing when it does.  It is much too late for that.

[Tom MacWood]

Pat,

What he's saying is...if CBM routed and designed the golf course, why would he need to select it from a group of 5?

Who said there were five routings? On that site? If you ask me that thought is the biggest red herring of this entire debate, which is likely why that report remains hidden from public scrutiny.

[DMoriarty]

By the way, there is one key point that I don't bother to mention much, because of the righteous indignation it is bound to provoke,  but from what has been leaked about the Minutes, it is not entirely clear that the "plans" they looked at during the NGLA meeting were were CBM's plans from overseas.  In fact, it is not entirely clear that CBM even brought back plans for overseas.   He brought back sketches of various features, and he brought back survey maps he had made of certain greens, but I am not so sure there were any  "plans."  

It is entirely possible (if not likely) that when the Minutes refer to "CBM's plans" they are referring to CBM's plans for Merion. The minutes mention the stuff from europe as well, and if they were one and the same that would have been redundant.  Of course we don't know for sure because Wayne and TEPaul have been playing games with the source material.

__________________________

Speaking Wayne and Tom hiding the records from public scrutiny, why have we not heard more about this Board resolution to thank M&W in 1910.  We had been told repeatedly that we had been told everything, but obviously not.  

[Mike Cirba]

Patrick,

Everyone at Merion used the exact same language to thank M+W for their assistance.

The language they used was "advice" and "suggestions".

Have you ever been in a project where the Captain of the ship only advised and offered suggestions??

By the very definitions, the words imply only a sidebar role, and a choice whether or not to take those suggestions ny those charged with the project, namely Wilson.

It's what good leaders do...they seek advice from knowledgeable people before proceeding.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
Has the appreciation to M & W ever been posted on this site? If not, why not?

I suspect the advise given by M & W was the actual design of the individual holes. The routing of the course was likely in place when they became involved.  

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

I recall reading the appreciation comments several times on this site.  Maybe not all of them.

No doubt that the NGLA visit was used to impart basic design principles.  Still unclear as to how specific that advice was as to a particular routing, and the record suggests that it wasn't too specific, to me.  The NGLA visit was in March, and CBM approved one routing of many in April, so the final routing couldn't have been in place.

Of course, and as you know, I place no stock on the idea that Barker had routed the course, since he was hired by Connell, did a one day plan for a parcel of property that later changed substantially, etc.  Both he and CBM were brought in in 1910 for general advise as to whether the property was suitable.

[TEPaul]

I did post Lloyd's "appreciation" resolution to CBM/Whigam at some point. It's in the back pages.

[JESII]

Mike

I suspect the advise given by M & W was the actual design of the individual holes. The routing of the course was likely in place when they became involved.  

Tom,

To suspect that you would have to believe the officers of Merion at the time had no trouble misleading, and being dishonest to, their membership. I'm not sure many others in this conversation would agree with that possibility. Do you believe they would do that? To what gain?

[JESII]

David,

Regarding your post 192 and the Cape Hole...I was pretty much joking about the Flynn template. Flynn did create several holes that I am aware of that carry most of the Cape characteristics...including #10 at Merion today regardless of who designed the hole...and yes, #12 at Pine Valley is one of them.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Everyone at Merion used the exact same language to thank M+W for their assistance.

The language they used was "advice" and "suggestions".

Have you ever been in a project where the Captain of the ship only advised and offered suggestions??

Mike, that's where your facts, logic and argument are flawed.
He WASN'T the Captain. 
In fact, he had absolutely NO authority at Merion.
Nothing he said, wrote or recommended was binding on Merion.
He held NO position of authority at Merion
He was an outsider, one they turned to for the purpose of designing their golf course.
Therefore, he could only offer suggestions, advice and advise.


By the very definitions, the words imply only a sidebar role, and a choice whether or not to take those suggestions ny those charged with the project, namely Wilson.

Again, that's where your argument is flawed.
Wilson and the others were members, part of an official committee, Macdonald had NO official standing at Merion, he wasn't even a member.


Think Mike Keiser and Tom Doak.

It's what good leaders do...they seek advice from knowledgeable people before proceeding.

Especially when they don't know the first thing about golf courses in the UK, and how to embody their principles in the ground in the U.S.

[JESII]

Pat,

Would Mike Kaiser say he designed those golf courses with some advice from Doak?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jim,

Steve Wynn, Donald Trump and a few others might say they designed the courses with advice from their gca.  Many Tour pros say similar things without being deeply involved.  It happens just often enough to give fuel to the fire for those who believe MCC couldn't or wouldn't have done it themselves.

[JESII]

Jeff,

Has Steve Wynn or Donald Trump done this?

Forget what the Tour pro says, it's the client that you're suggesting said this. Has one of your clients done it to this degree?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jim,

I haven't looked it up, but from memory, I think Wynn did take co-credit with Fazio and Trump is claiming he will be designing his own future courses.  Then there was the guy in Myrtle who used Rees Jones but claimed it as his design and a lot of less heralded courses, including one in Texas I know where the owner hired the cheapest gca he could find for a routing and plans, didn't pay him his full fee, and then built it himself while crediting himself with the design.

[DMoriarty]

Mike Cirba,

You need to stop pretending that their role as "advisors" indicates that they only played a minor role.  Given that they weren't hired (they were amateurs,) that they were not members of Merion and therefore couldn't be on a committee, and that they were involved only in the planning and not actually involved in building the course, the term makes perfect sense.  Especially since "architect" wasn't yet a term of art that commonly applied such things.

Jeff Brauer.

Five routings?  I don't think there is anything about five routings.   My understanding, based on what has leaked out, is that after NGLA Wilson's Committee rearranged the course.    That sounds like one routing to me.   There is supposedly mention of five plans, but so far as we know those could be minor variations on one routing.  

Jim Sullivan,

I don't understand your last post to Tom MacWood.   What exactly would have had to be misleading?   I don't think that anyone was being dishonest at Merion, and don't see why you think that is the implication of Tom's post.  

Also Jim, Merion wasn't a "client" and the entire concept of what we think of as modern golf course design or modern golf course architecture was in its infancy.   Calling the outsider an "advisor" seems to make perfect sense.   And, early on, Merion was NOT calling Hugh Wilson the architect or the designer, at least not exclusive of CBM.   The board apparently never even mentions hugh during the relevant time period.     In 1914 Lesley wrote that the course was laid out on the ground by Wilson and Committee, with CBM and HJW as advisors.   In the 1920's Alan Wilson wrote that CBM and HJW were of the greatest help and value, but that EXCEPT FOR WHAT M&W contributed, Wilson was the person in the main in charge of the architecture.

But while I think the example is flawed, I believe the client who owns Kingsbarn's gets credit as the designer, along with the gca.   Same thing at Castle Stuart I believe.

[JESII]

David,

The implication in Tom's post was that Barker routed the course and CBM designed the holes. If that were true, the leaders of Merion would have grossly misled their membership in several ways.

[Jeff_Brauer]

David,

Then again, for all we know, if they wrote of preparing five plans (which even your wording equates with routings) then they prepared five plans.  And, for all we know, when they talk about looking at CBM's plans of GBI holes, that's what they were looking at, and they weren't parsing words between plans, surveys and sketches, which I think is just a bit of a stretch on your part, but consistent with how you have made your many arguements.

Once again, IMHO, if they speak of five plans and CBM picking one routing, the simplest explanation is that the said generally what they meant, not that they said something they didn't mean that requires the interpretation of a lawyer to understand it.  Just MHO.

And, BTW, I agree with Jim Sullivan.  TMac is suggesting that Barker routed the course despite never being one mention of him ever advising MCC. 

BTW2,  Did anyone actually ever call CBM an advisor or did they just thank him for his advice?  I seriously doubt CBM would have allowed that title, given he never took money for his work and may have been worried somewhat about the amateur status, as has been discussed.  And, not having a title may (but not with certainty) imply a less formal relationship than you suggest, and one more in keeping with the club designing and him advising on a less formal basis.  Or, I may just be parsing words in the spirit of this debate.

[DMoriarty]

Jeff

They didn't say they were looking at "CBM's plans of GBI holes.". That is my point.  You and others like to say they did, but so far as I know they didn't.

I believe Lesley called them advisors, but don't have it in front of me.

[Mike Cirba]

The minutes say when Mac came down and looked at the plans (five) and the ground itself and approved one. 

The committee created the plans.

[Jeff_Brauer]

David,

Well one of our memories is slightly off. I am sure someone will post the exact passage again, but I am pretty sure they mention looking at his plans from GBI, or at least his hole plans based on the great holes of GBI.  I haven't parsed the words lately to see if there is any hidden meaning.

The same documents have been posted over and over, and the same arguments parsing words keep coming up, along with claims that there are secret documents only some of us get to see, etc.

BTW, even IF they were looking at a topo map of Merion while at NGLA, they spent all of a day and a half there, and much of that is recorded as looking at NGLA itself.  Not much time for a routing, unless you are speculating that CBM did it in advance of that meeting.  However, that contradicts other records that say otherwise and has absolutely no factual basis from the documents we know.

My feeling is where does this end?  I suspect it will be when Merion updates its history for the 2013 US Open program with whatever new materials have been found, and it will contain a footnote that your essay and this discussion occurred, but were much ado about nothing.

[Phil_the_Author]

David,

Your example of Mark Parsinen's role in the design processes at Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart and why he gets "co-design credit" for the courses is in no way equivalent to what happened at Merion. "I believe the client who owns Kingsbarn's gets credit as the designer, along with the gca.   Same thing at Castle Stuart I believe."

Mark was not only actually involved in the day-to-day design process he was also invovled in the construction to the extent that he spent time on the tractors shaping both fairways and greens.

I don't believe anyone from Wilson's committee at Merion in 1911 was leading the horse teams in sculpting the land.

[DMoriarty]

Jeff,

You keep commenting about "parsing words."   While you seem quite comfortable reaching conclusions based on a less than accurate reading of the source material, I am not.  If that makes me a word parser then so be it.  

As for these words, there have been so many different versions of the supposed minutes that I don't know how we would recognize "the exact passage" even if someone did post it.   But as near as I can tell this portion as generally been represented as
. . . they went down to the National course with Mr. Macdonald and spent the evening going over his plans and the various data he had gathered abroad . . .

As you can see, the simplest and most straight forward meaning is that they went over two things: (1) CBM's plans and (2) the various data he had gathered abroad.   (Even TEPaul has acknowledged in the past that it is not clear that the "plans" mentioned were from the holes abroad!)

It is possible Lesley meant that they went over (1) CBM's plans . . . he had gathered abroad, as well as (2) the various data he had gathered abroad, but this reading is not without problems.  First, this isn't really what the passage says, and it is by no means the simplest and most straight forward interpretation of what was meant.  (2)  I am not even sure that what CBM brought back from abroad could be accurately characterizes as plans.

I am not claiming I know for certain what Lesley meant, although I am willing to bet I could figure it out if Wayne and TEPaul weren't hiding the source material from us.  My point is that all you guys are acting like there is no doubt that they were only looking at plans of overseas holes, and I find that to be very doubtful given the record.     I think it much more likely that they were looking at plans for NGLA or they were looking at CBM's plans for Merion, or some combination of the two.   Again, my guess is that the this would be discernible from the documents Wayne and Tom are hiding from us, but that they are either unwilling or incapable of figuring it out.  

BTW, even IF they were looking at a topo map of Merion while at NGLA, they spent all of a day and a half there, and much of that is recorded as looking at NGLA itself.  Not much time for a routing, unless you are speculating that CBM did it in advance of that meeting.  However, that contradicts other records that say otherwise and has absolutely no factual basis from the documents we know.

What records say otherwise?   I think there is strong factual basis for thinking CBM may have done the routing earlier.  Did you again forget that he had already inspected the property, given them a list of hole distances, mentioned the need for a topo, and wrote about using many specific features, including the quarry, the streams, and the land behind the clubhouse?  I think he had the routing in mind from the time he visited the property in June.  And while two days may not have been much time  time, he was returning to Merion in a few weeks to continue the process and to make sure they got it right.   Why would they have wasted time examining the holes at NGLA if they weren't planning on building similar holes at Merion?

My feeling is where does this end?  I suspect it will be when Merion updates its history for the 2013 US Open program with whatever new materials have been found, and it will contain a footnote that your essay and this discussion occurred, but were much ado about nothing.

It can end for you whenever you decide to quit posting.   My only wish is that if you choose for it continue for you, you pay a bit more attention to the actual record when you draw your conclusions.

It won't end for me until I know what happened to the best of my ability.  Given that Wayne and TEPaul have shown a completely unwillingness to honestly consider and present the information, I doubt it will end in 2013, at least not if they have anything to do with updating the "history."    Given that my only interest is getting to the truth, I've got nothing to lose and nothing but time.    It is really a pity that Merion is going to have to be dealing with this garbage in 2013.   These two jokers are really doing the club a disservice by playing these absurd games.  

_____________________________________

Phillip,  You've entirely missed the point.  Again.  There is no use trying to explain it to you.  

[Dan Herrmann]

David,
Tom and Wayne are certainly not "jokers".

If you desire to "know what happened to the best of my ability", you may have better luck if you pursue your quest off gca.com.  A visit to the USGA may be a good idea.

And why would Merion be dealing with "this garbage" in 2013?  As far as I can tell, there are less than six people in the whole world that share your passion.

[DMoriarty]

Dan Herrmann,  

"Jokers" is an overly kind characterization given the way Tom Paul and Wayne Morrison have behaved throughout this entire process.  They have not only been obfuscating and misrepresenting the historical record for years, they have also been acting in direct contravention of the stated archival policies of both Merion Golf Club  and Merion Cricket Club.  They have each broken their word on numerous occasions and have each pretended to represent organizations when they had no authority to do so.  There is much more, but in short, they have turned what should have been an interesting historical exploration into an embarrassment and a laughing stock. The "garbage" results from TEPaul's and Wayne's involvement, not from the issue itself.  For Merion's sake, I hope they come to their senses and shut these two jokers down long before 2013.  

As far as you can tell, there are only six people interested in this?  Your understanding of the level of interest in this issue is about as accurate as your understanding of Merion's early history.  

By the way, I hope you aren't including yourself among those six people.  Because while you do occasionally post on these threads most of your posts seem to be limited to cheerleading or defending your pals no matter how egregious their behavior.  Like your post immediately above.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()