[Bill Satterfield]

Recently returned from a trip to the east coast that included a visit to Pine Valley.  I'm curious to hear some discussion regarding Pine Valley vs Cypress Point.  It is tough to beat the property that Cypress sits on, but I've never seen a course with as great of a design as Pine Valley.  Would be curious to get some thoughts.

On another note, we also played Merion.  WOW!  Easily the best design I've ever played on that tight of acreage - just fantastic!!

[Marty Bonnar]

Bill,
I think my thouights can be summarised in five words:

La Belle et la Bête

Both awe-inspiring in equal measure. Two polar examples of just what a golf course can be, yet happily displaying at least a little common 'parentage'.

FBD.

[Tim Bert]

Bill - Since it is fresh in your mind and it clearly made a lasting impression on you, I'd love to hear your thoughts on which aspects left you with the opinion that it was the greatest design you've seen.  I've never played the course.  I love the look but often thought that if I ever play it I better sit back and enjoy the course for what it is because it looks like it would destroy any remaining confidence in my already feeble game.  Truth be told, I feel like I'd probably get more out of walking the course at the Crump Cup than playing a once-in-a-lifetime single round there.

[Kevin Pallier]

Bill

Both courses stir the senses like few others - I found them to be amazing experiences.

I love the transitions at Cypress Point and Pine Valley is like drinking a great red - pure quality throughout - and the only let down was walking off the 18th green.....

[Bill_McBride]

Bill

Both courses stir the senses like few others - I found them to be amazing experiences.

I love the transitions at Cypress Point and Pine Valley is like drinking a great red - pure quality throughout - and the only let down was walking off the 18th green.....

Kevin, when you say "transitions" about Cypress Point, are you talking about how you go from dunes to forest to dunes to forest etc etc?

If so, I totally agree, it made the sum of the parts WAY MORE than the individual parts!

[Kevin Pallier]

Kevin, when you say "transitions" about Cypress Point, are you talking about how you go from dunes to forest to dunes to forest etc etc?

If so, I totally agree, it made the sum of the parts WAY MORE than the individual parts!

Bill

Absolutely - it's so seemless.

[Bill_McBride]

Kevin, when you say "transitions" about Cypress Point, are you talking about how you go from dunes to forest to dunes to forest etc etc?

If so, I totally agree, it made the sum of the parts WAY MORE than the individual parts!

Bill

Absolutely - it's so seemless.

Seamless indeed, but OH-MI-GOD how the excitement builds as you get to the ocean holes.  Mackenzie was indeed a freaking genius, and never shown any more clearly than with that incredible routing.

Of course this makes the ancient conundrum, was it Dr Mac's or Raynor's routing? - even more cogent!!

[Jim Nugent]

Of course this makes the ancient conundrum, was it Dr Mac's or Raynor's routing? - even more cogent!!

If it is Raynor's routing, seems to me he gets at least partial attribution for the course. 

But I remember that statement that supposedly Raynor said they couldn't route the course where 16 ended up.  The carry was too long.   Say that is true.  Then Raynor didn't route 16.  He probably didn't route 17 either, and 18 would seem unlikely, too.  What about 15?  Given the current number 15, is there a fairly logical alternative sequence to get back to the clubhouse? 

Also, did Raynor route any other courses similar to CPC?  Remotely similar?  I'm familiar with his templates.  Can you see CPC as a template filled course?   

[PCCraig]

Picking between the two is pure preference, much like choosing between a hot redhead (Pine Valley ) and a California Blonde ( Cypress Point )

[Paul Jones]

I think if you look at just the merits of a golf course, Pine Valley is the best.  However, if I had a chance to join either or even play one again, I would pick Cypress Point.  I think Cypress Point would be more enjoyable and easier for a high handicap player.

[Sean Leary]

I think if you look at just the merits of a golf course, Pine Valley is the best.  However, if I had a chance to join either or even play one again, I would pick Cypress Point.  I think Cypress Point would be more enjoyable and easier for a high handicap player.

Perfectly put....

[Bill Satterfield]

Bill - Since it is fresh in your mind and it clearly made a lasting impression on you, I'd love to hear your thoughts on which aspects left you with the opinion that it was the greatest design you've seen.  I've never played the course.  I love the look but often thought that if I ever play it I better sit back and enjoy the course for what it is because it looks like it would destroy any remaining confidence in my already feeble game.  Truth be told, I feel like I'd probably get more out of walking the course at the Crump Cup than playing a once-in-a-lifetime single round there.

Tim, for me, what makes Pine Valley the greatest design is the variety and challenge.  For example, in regards to the par 3s you have a beautiful downhill hole (#3) that plays over a TON of sand, then the next par 3 (#5) is uphill and longer and plays over water, then you have a relatively flat par three (#10) that plays shorter than the previous two holes and features the nastiest little bunker I've ever seen, and finally you have a long par three that plays downhill and features sand on the right and water on the left.  When you get into the par fours it seems to have the perfect mix of holes running in different directions, different lengths, different shapes, and varied elevation changes.  No hole feels the same out there!  The member that I played with said that he has hosted several players over the years and afterwards always asks what their favorite hole was.  13-14 different holes have been selected - that is quite the testament of how good Pine Valley is.

In regards to the challenge, it is certainly a difficult course but the fairways were wider than what I was expecting which was nice since you need all the help you can get out there!

[Marty Bonnar]

I got to wondering if the ORDER in which you encounter these great golf courses has any bearing on your opinion.

I played CPC first - more than five years before I got to PV. Most of the old gang here know how much playing - hell, just SEEING - CPC meant to me. As close to a religious experience this old eedjit could ever have!!!

Then, playing PV much later and finding a completely different golf experience which touched me in a totally different way.

It's hard for me to properly define the two different sensations, but in speaking with a well-loved fellow of these parts, I came to this conclusion. CPC has an exquisite beauty and location coupled with a marvellous golf experience whilst PV is the ultimate REAL test of your mettle as a golfer in what I thought was an almost hostile, yet totally-engaging golf environment.

To mis-use a well-kent friends metaphor: Golf in the Garden of GOOD and EVIL!!!! Both compelling, both exciting, one perhaps contemplative, one more visceral. One romantic, One Dramatic, One Angerlic, One Satanic!!!! even complete with his anal aperture!!!

cheers,
FBD.

[Carl Nichols]

They both look incredible, and from everything I have read and seen, I suspect I will agree with Paul Jones if I'm ever lucky enough to play both.  (Note:  This is not an attempt at access whoring!)

[Phil_the_Author]

You're asking a guy who eats at Macdonald's to choose between Peter Luger's and Ben Benson's as to who has the better steak?

You are a very, very cruel man Mr. Satterfield, a very, very cruel man...

[Mark Chaplin]

Carl - shame I was going to get you a couple of invites! The only people who do not access whore for PV and CPC are members.

[Tom Birkert]

They are both utterly fantastic in different ways.

Pine Valley I find a lot more intimidating visually (despite 15, 16 and 17 at Cypress!) whereas Cypress tends to lull you into a false sense of security early on.

The views at Cypress simply can't be beaten, it's like sensory overload when you cross the road to 15.

Pine Valley is one of the truest tests of the best golfers, along with Muirfield, Oakmont, Shinnecock and Merion.

I would hate to have to choose one over the other, they are both so fantastic. Playing at either is a huge honour.

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