[Bill Satterfield]

I am on a panel that is selecting a management firm to run the two municipal courses in my home town.  There were four applicants with the only out-of-state applicant being Billy Casper Golf.  They are currently operating over 100 courses nationwide.  I'm wondering if anyone on this site has had an experience with their firm and any experience with the golf courses they are operating and what has been better/worse since they took over.  Thanks!!

[Mike Nuzzo]

Bill,

One of their employees is a regular here - Rob W.
I like him and every other person I've met from the company - which is several.

I would suggest you visit their properties and talk to their pros and value that research over asking opinions here.

Cheers
Mike

[Tim Gavrich]

Bill--

I live in Hartford County, Connecticut, and have played Wintonbury Hills GC, a municipal Casper-operated course, many times and find it to be quite well-managed and almost always in well above-average condition.  I haven't been to Lyman Orchards GC in Connecticut recently enough to comment on the state of affairs there, but I do know that there was a very recent renovation to one of their two golf courses.  I played Oxford Greens GC in Oxford, CT a few weeks ago and thought that it was decently run.  The course wasn't in such great shape as Wintonbury--there were a couple large swaths of fairway without much grass on them, although it was a pretty dry summer in CT.  I notice that Billy Casper manages the courses at Bay Creek in Cape Charles, VA.  I've only played the Palmer course, but enjoyed it both from a design and a conditions standpoint, and it seems like the place itself is well-run.

Hope this is helpful; best of luck in your search!

--Tim Gavrich

[Mike Nuzzo]

Tim brings up an excellent source.
Call Brad Klein and get his opinion about their work at Wintonbury.

It is hard to tell if the difference is a great super or a great manager or both.
Cheers

[Bill Satterfield]

Mike - I have contacted a couple of their courses and talked with people and thought this would be yet another channel of opinions and knowledge to draw from.  Visiting one of their courses before a decision is made (Monday) won't happen since Las Vegas (600 miles away) is their closest facility to where I live.  In all of my travels I don't believe I've played a course managed by them so getting some feedback would be nice.

[Bill Satterfield]

Mike - it doesn't surprise me that your exposure to them has been good.  They made an impressive presentation and seem to be quite professional in their operation.

[Kris Shreiner]

Bill,

Within the last two years, the Casper gang have taken over the management of several of Philly's municpals, Cobbs Creek being the most well-known. Their team has done a very solid job so far, and the weather conditions have been anything but kind during these last several years. From my experience, the test is after the first few years of the contract or agreement. If the service level and  course/facility(s) presentation remains consistent, you have a winner.

Some outfits start out with great intentions, and then fade. In the current environment, with the outlook somewhat uncertain for the future, speaking with a few management folks, from properties with which the prospective suitors have had lengthy working relationships, should give your panel a sound read on who to select.

Cheers,
Kris

[Pat Burke]

We've had a couple of dealings with some of the managers and/or pros of a few B Casper Courses.
I've not hear any bad things, and I am not a management company fan usually.  Any of the people I have come across have been very
good and professional.  As far as management companies, I'd be pretty comfortable with them in my experience

[PCCraig]

I know they took over the Forest Preserve courses here in Cook County and have done a pretty good job turning them around. I believe they also won the Chicago contract for their courses over Kemper but I haven't played any of those since and wouldn't know how that's going.

[Bill Satterfield]

Kelly - the other applicants are local guys.  Years ago the city ran the courses and was losing a fair amount of money on them.  So they decided to lease it out for $1.  A couple of local pros took over and made them profitable.  Every 10 years the city has a rebidding process to see who will run the courses.  The current lease holder is reapplying, two local brothers that are pros are applying, and a another pro that is currently operating a 9 hole course 2 hours away is applying.  Those 3 local applicants along with the Billy Casper proposal are the four bids being considered.  I liken it to trying to pick between a franchise restaurant (Billy Casper) or a local eatery (local applicants).  Billy Casper has a model for marketing, operations, training, etc.  The local guys don't have the software and setup that a company like Billy Casper has but they would have some extra 'love' to offer the courses since they live here and want to see the course improve more and more.  The city asked for a base lease payment plus a percentage of sales over a given amount.  They also require the lease holder to own/lease all the equipment necessary to operate the courses.  The city doesn't own any lawnmowers or equipment anymore (the current lease holder has purchased it all).  The 3 local applicants all followed the financial model and were willing to provide the equipment while Billy Casper proposed an entirely different arrangement where they would receive a monthly fee for their services and the city would have to purchase the lawnmowers, carts, grill equipment, etc. and then the city would receive the profits above and beyond the expenses.  In the end, the Billy Casper proposal puts the city at greater risk and equally greater reward depending on how Billy Casper operates things.  The other proposals give the city a base payment and all the risk and responsibility lies with the lease holder.  It has been a very interesting process to participate in.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Bill
I have been involved in these types of deals for 27 years.  It sounds like Billy Casper proposed a management agreement when the city(?) was asking for a lease arrangement.  Was this an option in the RFP? 
Most big companies today are hoping to reduce their risk and do more management type arrangements.
What course or city/county is this?
With golf play dropping the city, by taking Billy Casper, will be at a big risk in the future.  However an under capitalized group may default if golf continues to shrink and that also puts the city at future risk.

Unless the local group has some friends on the selection committee, I am betting the staffers will guide you toward Billy Casper.  That is the safe choice and city staffers usually prefer the easy path.
Just put some conditions and burdens on Billy Casper in the final agreement and hold their feet to the fire.  They will complain but at the end of the day want the deal.

[Joel Zuckerman]

I have had lots of experience with key management at Billy Casper Inc. for nearly 10 years, though not necessarily on the course management side of their multi-faceted business.

They are the cream of the crop, IMO, and have a well-deserved stellar reputation.

[jeffwarne]

Kelly - the other applicants are local guys.  Years ago the city ran the courses and was losing a fair amount of money on them.  So they decided to lease it out for $1.  A couple of local pros took over and made them profitable. 

City was losing money, now they're not.
Award the contract to those same two pros for a job well done.
People who fear having their legs cut out from them tend to make few capital improvements.
Show them that won't happen and that you won't sell out to the suits

[Eric Pevoto]

jeffwarne:  +1  A little love goes a long way.

Are there any significant economies of scale gained through hiring management companies? 

[Randy Thompson]

I agree, if it ainīt broke why fix it. I donīt see the city making investments and getting back involved and having more at risk, a company maybe, a city ummmm doubt it!

[Trey Stiles]

Bill
I have been involved in these types of deals for 27 years.  It sounds like Billy Casper proposed a management agreement when the city(?) was asking for a lease arrangement.  Was this an option in the RFP? 
Most big companies today are hoping to reduce their risk and do more management type arrangements.
What course or city/county is this?
With golf play dropping the city, by taking Billy Casper, will be at a big risk in the future.  However an under capitalized group may default if golf continues to shrink and that also puts the city at future risk.

Unless the local group has some friends on the selection committee, I am betting the staffers will guide you toward Billy Casper.  That is the safe choice and city staffers usually prefer the easy path.
Just put some conditions and burdens on Billy Casper in the final agreement and hold their feet to the fire.  They will complain but at the end of the day want the deal.

I'll 2nd what Lynn is saying and add a couple of thoughts.

If the city is doing straight up 10 year deals , don't expect much in the way of capital improvements unless the contract specifies significant capital improvements. If the city specifies a % of revenue to go to capital improvements , they need to pre approve what it goes for.

I've been successful doing the non conforming approach the Casper is using. It's a great way to get a deal when you suspect that the lease proposals will come in low or that city staff has some hesitation in using local contractors. It has the potential to be a win-win for Golfers / City / Mgt Co.

One more thought : The biggest issue to consider might not be if Casper is a good organization . The biggest issue might be where does the city want it's golf operation to be in 10 years. Answering that question now should have a significant impact on the type deal they do now. If the city is taking a short view based on financial considerations , that leads down path " A " . If the city is taking a long view based on a combo of safety , risk , financial considerations , long term asset protection , ect. , that will lead down path " B ".  It's very important for the city to " view the entire chess board " as opposed to " the next move "

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