This had the potential to be an interesting thread, but between Cirba's hyperbole and trips to his own Bizarro World and TEPaul's endless insults, attacks, threats, and unsupported and unsupportable claims, it has become a monumental waste of our time.
Out of curiosity I went back and read TEPaul's last ten posts. Read them yourselves and see what you learn about golf course architecture.
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Mike Cirba:
Are you actually trying to tell us that 1911 and 1912 and 1913 came AFTER 1910?
What a stupid idea and suggestion, and I think Moriarty and MacWood have every good right and reason to call that fantasy and fiction too. If you're going to suggest something stupid like that then you're going to start screwing up Moriarty's brilliant discovery that Richard Francis fixed a triangle in 1910 at Merion before he was appointed to do anything in 1911.
And you call yourself a researcher/historian??
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Spoken by the man who on this website called Merion's long time historian, who he has never even met, the "poster boy of unethical archivists."
So please don't blame anyone else on here for these threads devolving!
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No, David Moriarty, I am not suffering from any delusions about Merion or my relationship with Merion. Just out of interest, have you ever actually bothered to speak with anyone at Merion about my involvement on this website regarding the architectural history of Merion?
NO, I DIDN'T THINK SO!
As far as what you call your 'great respect' for Merion, you surely have a very odd way of showing it on here in the opinion of Merion and everyone who actually knows Merion Golf Club.
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Did someone at Merion tell you that a member of Merion must speak for the club on this website? Did Merion or John Capers or anyone else at Merion explain my relationship with Merion to you! Answer that Moriarty but think carefully about how you answer it because if you aren't careful your answer will probably end up being very embarrassing to you as it logically should be!! With Merion and its membership and the friends of Merion and its membership you surely have no remote idea at all how it all works but then again why in the world would you?
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Well, Moriarty, we are definitely talking about speaking to the same person here. Would you like me to call him and get his OK to put on here what you said to him and what he said to you (not that I have to) or would you just prefer to either delete or retract what you just said?
And, by the way, I am under no encumbrance at all to discuss on here what he and I talked about even if you seem to think you are as you refer to it as a "private" conversation. Did he request that you consider it a "private" conversation or is that just your own construct since you know perfectly well you cannot confirm with the person you talked to anything remotely like what you just implied!
Essentially I just can't imagine why in the world you would ever expect some confidence from Merion or anyone from it with you. There is no way they would offer something like that to someone like you and you know it, and you know they know it, and you know I know it!
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Moriarty:
Tomorrow I am going to post a thread on here that will show what it will take for you to have complete access to Merion's historical information. It will be most interesting for sure to see how you will respond. Are you ready for that?
It will be really interesting to see how you will react to who you will have to deal with? Somehow I have a funny feeling you won't be able to handle it. Poor you---poor little Moriarty----Oh My everyone is out to GET ME---OH POOR ME, everyone is against me! BOO-HOO-BOO-HOO-HOO-HOO!!!!
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Regarding Ekwanok and Travis I think there is some information in Bob Labbance's Travis biography. Do you have that book? If not I will see what's in it and quote it on here later today or tomorrow. I think I recall a thread about Ekwanok and Travis some time ago and I think Tom MacWood questioned the accuracy of what Labbance wrote about Ekwanok and Travis. I'm not sure what thread it was but it's in the back pages somewhere.
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The original 1894 nine hole course at Myopia was originally routed and designed by three "amateur/sportsmen" Myopia Hunt Club members; R.M. (Bud) Appleton, "Squire" Merrill and A.P Gardner. That original nine was reworked by Herbert C. Leeds and the Golf Committee in 1896-97 and became known as the "Long Nine" over which the 1898 US Open was played. In 1899 and 1900 Leeds increased the course to eighteen holes and by 1908 three more US Opens had been played on it. The Myopia course today is remarkably similar to that latter eighteen hole course of the first decade of the 20th century.
Recently, Gil Hanse has done some limited restoration work on it (restoring some obsoleted old bunkers and expanding fairways etc). I'm going to be in the vicinity in about ten days for the 105th Lesley Cup Matches which will be held at The Country Club (Brookline) and either before it or probably just after it I plan to play a round at Myopia with my Herbert C. Leeds tournament partner, Dan Bacon, whose great grandfather, Robert Bacon, was one of the three "amateur/sportsmen" members of Brookline who laid out the original course at The Country Club, Brookline with Herbert Windelar.
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Yes, I do. The evidence is in club's records from that time. It's board meeting minutes even though they have an unusual name obviously because the club was a Hunt and polo club before they had a golf course. They are the club's administrative records and they trump any inaccurate newspaper articles any day.
If you want to read them call Myopia yourself and see if they will let you read them which frankly I would doubt at this point. You need to do your own research and stop trying to get others to provide it to you with no effort on your part. There is nothing Myopia needs to prove to you and either do I, that's for sure.
Your wild goose chases with Merion, Pine Valley, Myopia, Glen Ridge, Shawnee and others in your pathetic attempts to prove someone wrong about something has run its course on here. In the process you've lost any crediblity you ever had which wasn't much anyway. I doubt there is a club in the country who would be willing to have anything to do with you when they find out what you do on here. You've given this website a bad name too. So long, MacWood, the self proclaimed "expert researcher." You're a total joke!
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Yes I have because that is the accurate and factual history of the creation of the original 1894 nine at Myopia. There is no reason to engage in alternative "theories" which is all you seem to do. Myopia's history was well recorded contemporaneously and those facts are just the facts. You may conclude that intelligent men who make up the board of directors of these significant clubs just sat there at board meetings and lied to one another and just made up a bunch of lies about what they were doing and attempting to do but I do not subscribe to that kind of nonsense, even though I do recognize people like you and Moriarty do on here.
That's correct. The supporting documentation from that early time of the original nine----AKA the Run Book, is at Myopia. That is where I read it. It's not much different from Merion or MCC and most clubs of that age and ilk; one needs to actually go there to read and analyze historic material. Something, I might add, AGAIN, you are no good at; a dismal failure at would probably be a more accurate and appropriate description. And you actually try to call yourself "an expert researcher/historian" on here?
AMAZING!!
All you seem to be able to do with the histories of these clubs is find some old newspaper article and then misread it and/or misunderstand it in its context and then launch into another campaign claiming another club's history or history book is all wrong or some work of fantasy or fiction.
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