America's Top Courses 1910

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul, instead of extending your it is not what you know it is WHO you knowrhetoric to yet another thread, why dont you educate us about Myopia.  With all your access you must have something you can teach us.  But with FACTS instead of romantic notions about the ever-shy Mr. Leeds and his lost secret  diary."


David Moriarty:

I have educated this site about Myopia but it appears both you and MacWood didn't pay attention. I suppose that's understandable when both of you admit you don't even read certain posts.

And it seems the ones you do try to read you don't understand very well. I didn't say Leeds was shy; I said he was publicity shy. There is a difference even if some stumphead like you doesn't understand the difference. You are virtually uneducateable apparently. The Leeds Scrapbook is obviously a very valuable asset but sometimes these kinds of things get lost or miss-placed even if you don't seem to understand that either. There has been a search on for it in the last year by both the club and me. Just like the Merion contour survey map that the Wilson Committee used to route and design Merion East in the winter and spring of 1911 I am hopeful that the Leeds Scrapbook will turn up.

I see absolutely no reason at all to discuss Myopia with you in the future until you become familiar with the golf course and the club's material that deals with its architectural history and on that I'm sure not going to hole my breath as you will need to go to the club for that as you should have done with Merion before launching into that fallacious IMO essay of yours.

I also had lunch today at GMGC with Merion's historian John Capers, the man MacWood defamed on here as "the poster boy of unethical archivists" to which you concured on here with MacWood, thereby inspiring Ran Morrissett to lock that thread. It was a most beneficial lunch and a number of interesting reports on the club's history will be in the works shortly.

Would you like to offer to collaborate with your opinions this time, Moriarty, or do you want to continue playing your petty agenda driven adverserial role on the Internet?

[Tom MacWood]

Tommy Mac

Is the Detroit course Vardon praises as the best of his second tour (1913) of the US, the same as his first tour (1900) - CC of Detroit? 

Ciao

It was the Colt course designed in 1911.

Tommy Mac

Bizarre.  So both the courses Vardon praised were NLE not all that long after he visted each!  Do you have any clue why CC of Detroit didn't hire Khan for their current house? 

Ciao

Sean
What is the other course he praised that is NLE? I don't know why they didn't hire Kahn, but I do like the current clubhouse. They may not have liked his 1920's 'modern' style.

[Tom MacWood]

"TEPaul, instead of extending your it is not what you know it is WHO you knowrhetoric to yet another thread, why dont you educate us about Myopia.  With all your access you must have something you can teach us.  But with FACTS instead of romantic notions about the ever-shy Mr. Leeds and his lost secret  diary."


David Moriarty:

I have educated this site about Myopia but it appears both you and MacWood didn't pay attention. I suppose that's understandable when both of you admit you don't even read certain posts.

And it seems the ones you do try to read you don't understand very well. I didn't say Leeds was shy; I said he was publicity shy. There is a difference even if some stumphead like you doesn't understand the difference. You are virtually uneducateable apparently. The Leeds Scrapbook is obviously a very valuable asset but sometimes these kinds of things get lost or miss-placed even if you don't seem to understand that either. There has been a search on for it in the last year by both the club and me. Just like the Merion contour survey map that the Wilson Committee used to route and design Merion East in the winter and spring of 1911 I am hopeful that the Leeds Scrapbook will turn up.

I see absolutely no reason at all to discuss Myopia with you in the future until you become familiar with the golf course and the club's material that deals with its architectural history and on that I'm sure not going to hole my breath as you will need to go to the club for that as you should have done with Merion before launching into that fallacious IMO essay of yours.

I also had lunch today at GMGC with Merion's historian John Capers, the man MacWood defamed on here as "the poster boy of unethical archivists" to which you concured on here with MacWood, thereby inspiring Ran Morrissett to lock that thread. It was a most beneficial lunch and a number of interesting reports on the club's history will be in the works shortly.

Would you like to offer to collaborate with your opinions this time, Moriarty, or do you want to continue playing your petty agenda driven adverserial role on the Internet?

TEP
You haven't educated me because I don't believe know what the hell your talking about regarding Myopia. You rely exclusively on the club history. From what I understand the lost book you speak of (and that you've never seen) was a scrap book. I have a fairly thick file of articles dating from 1893 to Leeds death and beyond. I've re-created my own scrap book.

[Sean_A]

Tommy Mac

Is the Detroit course Vardon praises as the best of his second tour (1913) of the US, the same as his first tour (1900) - CC of Detroit?  

Ciao

It was the Colt course designed in 1911.

Tommy Mac

Bizarre.  So both the courses Vardon praised were NLE not all that long after he visted each!  Do you have any clue why CC of Detroit didn't hire Khan for their current house?  

Ciao

Sean
What is the other course he praised that is NLE? I don't know why they didn't hire Kahn, but I do like the current clubhouse. They may not have liked his 1920's 'modern' style.

Tommy Mac

Vardon praised the original course at CC of Detroit as one of the best on his Tour of 1900.  Of course, that course and the magnificent Khan clubhouse were abandoned to make way for the 1913 (when it opened - I always prefer to use opening dates) Colt course.  

Is there another club in existence who abandoned a Colt course (presumablly a very good one at that) only to have Alison come in to build another course?  the members of CC of Detroit had muy largo cahones.

Ciao

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

You don't seem to believe what anyone is talking about on here in this odd and ongoing mission of yours to prove the architectural attribution of significant golf courses wrong. You can collect all the files of newspaper articles you want but the fact is that kind of thing is never as accurate as contemporaneous administrative records of these clubs which you've never researched because you've never been to any of them. Unfortunately when they are explained to you on here you invariably claim they are all works of fiction and fantasy and that the ones explaining them to you are altering original documents. Not to mention the fact when you demand these archives be sent to you and the club's archivist/historian explains to you one must visit the club to do research you label him on this website 'the poster boy of unethical archivists.'  

You have a very novel way of approaching golf architecture history, that's for sure! That is why you no longer have any credibllity among fellow researchers and historians.  

[Tom MacWood]

Sean
I didn't know Vardon praised (or played) the original course. He was bad luck....apparently they kept away from the third. I can't imatgine there have been too many Colt courses abandoned, much less ones that hosted a major championship.

[Sean_A]

Sean
I didn't know Vardon praised (or played) the original course. He was bad luck....apparently they kept away from the third. I can't imatgine there have been too many Colt courses abandoned, much less ones that hosted a major championship.

Its a curious list Vardon praised in 1900:

Atlantic City
Newport & Apawamis not far behind AC
Shinnecock, Chicago, Midlothian,Dyker Meadow, Detroit (CCofDetroit) and Scarsdale up there as well. 

Ciao

[Tom MacWood]

That looks about right, he must not have gone to Boston.

[TEPaul]

If there is any truth to the book and movie about Ouimet, Vardon did go to Boston since it depicts Ouimet watching him and virtually idolizing him as a little boy. However, that book and movie could be complete fantasy and fiction like the Merion and Myopia history books, particularly if Tom MacWood has yet not found references to Vardon in Boston in some newspaper accounts.  

[Mike Cirba]

Dear Bizarro World Architectural Revisionist Historians;

Q. In the Bizarro World of Architectural Revisionist History, what were the Top Courses in America in 1910?

A. Courses like Mayfield that opened in 1911, Columbia that opened in 1912, and Detroit, that opened in 1913, along with a slew of others that had major revisions planned in 1910 that weren't done until 1911 and beyond.    

As regards Vardon's list, perhaps he was partial to courses designed by Englishmen?   Perhaps with his accuracy, he liked courses that punished the wayward sufficiently?   Perhaps he had a lassie in Detroit?...Lord knows all those weeks and months on the road with Big Ted Ray could not have been a picnic.


Q. In the Bizarro World of Architectural Revisionist History, how is CC Worthington an "experienced designer", yet Dr H.Toulmin who co-designed Belmont in 1897 or Rodman Griscom who is given credit in 1905 for having golf course construction experience (presumably as a Junior's Farm apprentice on Daddy's farm at the original Merion course), or Hugh Wilson, who was on the Princeton Green Committee in 1901 as they were building a Willie Dunn courses all rank inexperienced neophytes by 1910?

A. I don't know...in the Bizarro World of Architectural Revisionist History we make this stuff up as we go along.   What are your facts??


Q.In the Bizarro World of Architectural Revisionist History, why did Macdonald take many months and even years to route and design NGLA yet was able to do the same work at Merion in a single day visit to the property?

A. Ah....uninitiated one.....you are not understanding the value and benefits of Practice or you wouldn't even ask such an irrelevant question!


Q. In the Bizarro World of Architectural Revisionist History, if HH Barker took a Midnight Train to Georgia to play in a tournament in December 1910, how many golf courses did he design along the way?   Where did he leave his clubs and luggage while he was off designing?

A. As many as I can credit him with.   I have a tattered receipt that I believe shows he paid the porter a 5 spot to watch his stuff.


Q. In the Bizarro World of Architectural Revisionist History, if a man "laid out" a course on a Monday, then came back and "laid off" the course on Tuesday, what actually would be the result?

A. Isn't it obvious??   Whatever the club's history book says is undeniably wrong, so let's start there.   Was it a foreign professional golfer?   If you can provide more information such as letting me know WHO it was I'll tell you if they actually designed the course by then or simply put sticks on the ground in accordance with someone else's plans.   If they were given plaudits for their job of "laying out" the course in contemporaneous news articles and special dinners for their work, it's much more likely they were simply mind-numbingly placing the sticks where they were told, usually by a bright, good-looking, snappy dressing English professional.


Q. In the Bizarro World of Architectural Revisionist History, I am in possession of a to-scale, professionally drawn Land Plan that contains a triangle that measures 100 yards by 310 yards.   That can't be right, can it?  What does this REALLY mean?

A.  That would be indisputable evidence that the area in question actually measures 130 yards by 190 yards.


Q. In the Bizarro World of Architectural Revisionist History, if by 1910 all the Big Clubs were either hiring pro golfers or previously experienced amateurs to design or change their courses, why did Merion have Hugh Wilson design the West Course and then change their East course for the 1916 Amateur, or use him again to make more changes in 1924?   Why did Huntingdon Valley use Ab Smith, or Whitemarsh Valley use George Thomas, or Shawnee use Tillinghast, or North Hills and LuLu use Meehan, or Pine Valley use Crump and Friends, or Philly Cricket use Sam Heebner, or Philly Country use EK Bispham, or Moorestown Field use Samuel Allen..or.. or....

A. That's all the time we have for today folks.   Stay tuned for much more Bizarro World Architectural Revisionist History coming soon to a course near you!....    

[TEPaul]

Mike Cirba:

Are you actually trying to tell us that 1911 and 1912 and 1913 came AFTER 1910?

What a stupid idea and suggestion, and I think Moriarty and MacWood have every good right and reason to call that fantasy and fiction too. If you're going to suggest something stupid like that then you're going to start screwing up Moriarty's brilliant discovery that Richard Francis fixed a triangle in 1910 at Merion before he was appointed to do anything in 1911.

And you call yourself a researcher/historian??

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Don't shoot me...I'm just the interpreter on this planet!  

[Tom MacWood]

When it comes to these contensious historical issues/debates its very impressive how Philadelphians always take the high road and never allow these threads to devolve.

[DMoriarty]

I also had lunch today at GMGC with Merion's historian John Capers, the man MacWood defamed on here as "the poster boy of unethical archivists" to which you concured on here with MacWood, thereby inspiring Ran Morrissett to lock that thread. It was a most beneficial lunch and a number of interesting reports on the club's history will be in the works shortly.

Would you like to offer to collaborate with your opinions this time, Moriarty, or do you want to continue playing your petty agenda driven adverserial role on the Internet?

Tom Paul,

1.  Regarding Mr. Capers, please stop misrepresenting what I wrote. 

2.  Please stop injecting Mr. Capers and Merion into these threads.  If Mr. Capers (or any actual representative of Merion) wants to participate in these threads then he should contact Ran and set up a log-on and participate.  You are not doing him any favors by dragging him into this and by repeatedly misrepresenting his involvement in all of this.

3.  Ran locked the thread because you went crying to him and demanded that he do so.  Ironically, you are the one who smeared Mr. Capers by repeatedly indicating that he has been involved with you and Wayne and your unscrupulous treatment of Merion's history and documents.

4.  So far as I am concerned and SO FAR AS MERION GOLF CLUB IS CONCERNED, you are not a member of Merion Golf Club and you certainly do not represent Merion Golf Club or their viewpoint.  Perhaps you should quit embarrassing yourself and MGC by pretending to speak for them?

5.  It is no concern of yours whether or not Mr. Capers or anyone at Merion is interested in my opinions.  So quit pretending it is your concern.

Understood?

[TEPaul]

"Understood?"

Yes, Moriarty, your post #342 is well understood, as you are, by me, Merion Golf Club, Wayne Morrison, John Capers and everyone here who knows Merion and who Merion knows.

You are completely beyond the pale with that post. Most of these people including Capers have been friends of mine for over thirty years and yes we have all worked together with the history of Merion so don't you dare try to dictate a God-damned thing about any of it to anyone here including me or Merion.

Who in the HELL do you think you are Moriarty? Talk about someone embarrassing himself---YOU pretty much take the cake on that with what you've said on here even though MacWood has probably topped you when he called long time Merion historian, John Capers, "the poster boy of unethical archivists" on that thread that Ran Morrissett locked because of that shocking remark! And I remind you and everyone else who views this website that you concured on that and I ought to go find both your posts and make it the subject of a thread! I am going to copy those posts from that thread and yours above and take it to Merion for sure!

Is there no limit to the hatred you foist and spew on Merion, its members and friends and Philadelphians and their golf clubs, courses and history? It would seem there isn't. What exactly is your problem Moriarty?? It sure has to be a whole lot more than the fact that ridiculous essay of yours was criticized and corrected!

You and MacWood are pathetic and you really should be banned from this website for your incredible arrogance and rudeness towards one of America's most significant courses and clubs, its members and friends, as well as others on this website.

I wouldn't even ask you to apologize, at this point, as I have no doubt at all it would just fall on deaf ears. Obviously you and MacWood don't seem to understand it but Merion is actually unbelievably democratic and generous with providing access to their history and archives if one just follows their requested process which the two of you have failed to do if you want information on their history. I don't see them making any exceptions to that but in your case it may be getting pretty close with the shocking disrespect you have shown to that club and its members and friends on this website.

[DMoriarty]

"Understood?"

Yes, Moriarty, your post #342 is well understood, as you are, by me, Merion Golf Club, Wayne Morrison, John Capers and everyone here who knows Merion and who Merion knows.

You are completely beyond the pale with that post. Most of these people including Capers have been friends of mine for over thirty years and yes we have all worked together with the history of Merion so don't you dare try to dictate a God-damned thing about any of it to anyone here including me or Merion.

Who in the HELL do you think you are Moriarty? Talk about someone embarrassing himself---YOU pretty much take the cake on that with what you've said on here even though MacWood has probably topped you when he called long time Merion historian, John Capers, "the poster boy of unethical archivists" on that thread that Ran Morrissett locked because of that shocking remark! And I remind you and everyone else who views this website that you concured on that and I ought to go find both your posts and make it the subject of a thread! I am going to copy those posts from that thread and yours above and take it to Merion for sure!

Is there no limit to the hatred you foist and spew on Merion, its members and friends and Philadelphians and their golf clubs, courses and history? It would seem there isn't. What exactly is your problem Moriarty?? It sure has to be a whole lot more than the fact that ridiculous essay of yours was criticized and corrected!

You and MacWood are pathetic and you really should be banned from this website for your incredible arrogance and rudeness towards one of America's most significant courses and clubs, its members and friends, as well as others on this website.

I wouldn't even ask you to apologize, at this point, as I have no doubt at all it would just fall on deaf ears. Obviously you and MacWood don't seem to understand it but Merion is actually unbelievably democratic and generous with providing access to their history and archives if one just follows their requested process which the two of you have failed to do if you want information on their history. I don't see them making any exceptions to that but in your case it may be getting pretty close with the shocking disrespect you have shown to that club and its members and friends on this website.

TEPaul, Once again you seem to be suffering from the delusion that you are Merion and/or are here representing Merion. 

I have great respect for Merion and have always had great respect for the club.   Don't confuse my opinion of you with my opinion of the Merion, the bulk of its membership, or with Merion's fine history.

[TEPaul]

"When it comes to these contensious historical issues/debates its very impressive how Philadelphians always take the high road and never allow these threads to devolve."


Spoken by the man who on this website called Merion's long time historian, who he has never even met, the "poster boy of unethical archivists."  

So please don't blame anyone else on here for these threads devolving!  

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul, Once again you seem to be suffering from the delusion that you are Merion and/or are here representing Merion.  

I have great respect for Merion and have always had great respect for the club.   Don't confuse my opinion of you with my opinion of the Merion, the bulk of its membership, or with Merion's fine history."


No, David Moriarty, I am not suffering from any delusions about Merion or my relationship with Merion. Just out of interest, have you ever actually bothered to speak with anyone at Merion about my involvement on this website regarding the architectural history of Merion?

NO, I DIDN'T THINK SO!  

As far as what you call your 'great respect' for Merion, you surely have a very odd way of showing it on here in the opinion of Merion and everyone who actually knows Merion Golf Club.


 
 
 
 

[Mac Plumart]

I knew I was right in post 105...

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,45822.105/

 


So, 1910...great courses...

NGLA
Myopia
Garden City

Shouldn't Chicago Golf Club be a lock for one of the top courses?

[Mike Cirba]

Mac,

Regarding Chicago, it's tough to imagine based on the schematics of the course that it was great in 1910.   The routing was very basic, the holes stick-straight, and the rote cross-bunkering could have been mistaken for any paper job done by any $25 a day pro during those times.

I think it benefited from 1) Macdonald's very exuberant and ebullient personality, and 2) The course it later evolved into over time, largely under Raynor's supervision, and 3) the fact it was the first 18 hole course in the country..

It was certainly mentioned, but not in the same way as those you've cited, and I suspect its reputation was largely based on those factors I mentioned.   I'm thinking that if I were a traveling golfer in 1910, I'd also want to visit Ekwanok, Oakmont, Pinehurst #2, and perhaps even Atlantic City prior.

[Mac Plumart]

Got it, Mike...thanks.

Raynor's work transformed the course around when...do you know?  I can look it up, if you don't have it off the top of your head.

[Tom MacWood]

"Why do you see that as unusual, considering that in 1910, ALL OF THE courses in the United States that were deemed to be of top-quality were done by club amateurs themselves?"

~~Mike Cirba

[DMoriarty]

Mac

Please review Mike Cirba ridiculous and insulting "Bizarro" rant above and take that into consideration before trusting his objectivity.  Chicago ought to be included in any list of top US courses circa 1910.

As I said above, many of these courses were in a nearly constant state of change to keep up with evolving expectations and improving quality of play, and Chicago was most certainly one of these courses.  It did have a number of rudimentary elements and cross bunkering, but so did just about every other quality course which had existed for more than a year or two. Chicago hosted the US Amateur in 1905, 1909, and 1912.   It was roundly criticized after the 1909 Amateur as having not kept up with the times, but it made substantial changes between 1909 and 1910, and was again chosen for 1912.     NGLA was most certainly considered to be much better, and Myopia was largely considered better, but beyond that it was debatable.

[DMoriarty]

No, David Moriarty, I am not suffering from any delusions about Merion or my relationship with Merion. Just out of interest, have you ever actually bothered to speak with anyone at Merion about my involvement on this website regarding the architectural history of Merion?

NO, I DIDN'T THINK SO!  

Actually I have and it was very enlightening.  But I don't discuss my private conversations on a public website.  

As far as what you call your 'great respect' for Merion, you surely have a very odd way of showing it on here in the opinion of Merion and everyone who actually knows Merion Golf Club.

."In the opinion of Merion?"   There you go again.  

In the opinion of Merion you aren't a member of Merion and certainly don't speak for Merion.  So knock it off.   It is embarrassing.  

[TEPaul]

"In the opinion of Merion you aren't a member of Merion and certainly don't speak for Merion.  So knock it off.   It is embarrassing."


David Moriarty:

Did someone at Merion tell you that a member of Merion must speak for the club on this website? Did Merion or John Capers or anyone else at Merion explain my relationship with Merion to you! Answer that Moriarty but think carefully about how you answer it because if you aren't careful your answer will probably end up being very embarrassing to you as it logically should be!! With Merion and its membership and the friends of Merion and its membership you surely have no remote idea at all how it all works but then again why in the world would you?