[Tony_Muldoon]

Harvey has challenged Butch to fight for control of the Hole-in-the-Wall gang]
Harvey Logan: Guns or knives?
Butch Cassidy: Neither?
Harvey Logan: Pick!
Butch Cassidy: I don't want to shoot with you, Harvey.
Harvey Logan: [draws a big knife] Anything you say, Butch.
[Butch walks over to Sundance]
Butch Cassidy: [in a low voice] Maybe there's a way to make a profit in this. Bet on Logan.
Sundance Kid: I would, but who'd bet on you?
Harvey Logan: Sundance, when we're done and he's dead, you're welcome to stay.
Butch Cassidy: [low voice, to Sundance] Listen, I don't mean to be a sore loser, but when it's done, if I'm dead, kill him.
Sundance Kid: [low voice to Butch] Love to.
[waves to Harvey and smiles]
Butch Cassidy: No, no, not yet. Not until me and Harvey get the rules straightened out.
Harvey Logan: Rules? In a knife fight? No rules!
[Butch immediately kicks Harvey in the groin]





Wowie people are packin’ and the Captains are (trash)talkin’ ... just need to get the rules set.

Not long to wait now.

As we’re playing over a weekend tee times are scarcer than a Virgin in Swansea on a Saturday night.

So to make this work we’re suggesting

Friday
AM    Fourball
PM     Chapman

Sat
AM      Whatever, can be agreed on the day, not a scoring part of the competition.
PM       Fourball

Sunday
AM         Foursomes
PM         Singles (possibly two pairs playing simultaneous matches tbc)


But whoa, already I hear the cries, “Have they really named a form of golf after Chappers?”  and “Does it involve liquid refreshment?”


An explanation

The Chapman format (sometimes called Pinehurst Alternate Shot) is a LOT of fun. Both players hit their tee shot, they then cross-over and hit each other's ball for the second shot. Once the second shots have been played the players choose which of the balls will be used for the third shot... if it is the ball last struck by Player A, Player B plays next, then A, then B, etc until the ball is holed. The nice element of the format is that both players get to hit all of the tee shots and second shots (assuming they find both tee shots! HA HA). It has the alternate shot element to it, without all the pressure of the one-ball tee shots. 

So what say y’all?  Time to try Chapman?

[John Mayhugh]

Chapman - sure. Like foursomes w/o all the guilt.

[Tony_Muldoon]

And the handicap debate is back.

"As for handicaps... I don't really care which way we adjust the numbers. It's just that we have ALWAYS used the UK method... since the Yanks are the ones having to travel overseas each year it might be nice to use the US style of adjustment as a mild form of encouragement. "

I propose
Full handicap allowance for GB&I, three quarters for the USA

WTF handicaps apply in Chapman?  Singles,  Foursomes?



I will buy a pint for anyone who can explain the rules of "FuzzyDuck" to this group.

[Bill_McBride]

All I know is I need strokes.  Lots of strokes.

[Scott Warren]

Tony,

If the US guys send me the link to their GHIN page I can calculate their CONGU handicap for them and voila, we have an even playing field.

[Michael Whitaker]

Tony - Thank you for creating this post. I look forward to the matches and the camaraderie.

Tony and I have been discussing how we want to score the matches. We can use the usual 1 point per match in a standard matchplay system... or, we can play each match for 1 point per hole. If we play for 1 point per hole ALL 18 holes will be contested, which will make the matches that much more exciting without any "throwaway" holes.

What do you guys think?

1 point per match OR 1 point per hole?

[Eric Smith]

Tony - Chapman sounds like a blast.....A vote for Chapman!  

Mike - The point per hole idea sounds about right - making all worth something.....A vote for 1 point per hole!

[Jason Topp]

The format looks terrific and I look forward to it.  Scott - do you want a pm or an email with my handicap history?

[Scott Warren]

I'll wait to see if the two captains want to proceed that way. Don't want to step on any toes. But if they want to do that it's no drama for me, and either email or PM is fine.

[Bill_McBride]

Tony,

If the US guys send me the link to their GHIN page I can calculate their CONGU handicap for them and voila, we have an even playing field.

Other than the fact that the underlying assumptions are completely different!

UK:  only medal play rounds count, from the medal tees, and they all count.  Is there Equitable Score Control (ESC)?

US:  everything counts but only the lowest 10 of last 20 scores, and we adjust with ESC (nothing over 7 for a 10-18 handicap).  Match play conditions prevail.

These assumptions lead UK handicaps to be higher I think.

++++

All I know is --- I need strokes.

[Michael Whitaker]

The difference between the CONGU and USGA handicap calculations is MASSIVE.

Here is a paragraph from an article written by Dean Knuth, the former Senior Director of the United States Golf Association Handicap Department. As the developer of the USGA's Course Rating and Slope Rating System, Dean became known in golf circles as: The "Pope of Slope".

Here are some of his thoughts about the difference between UK and US handicaps:

Over the years I have had many communications with people who want a simple way to compare British handicaps to American handicaps. Some studies have shown a similarity to handicaps in specific ranges. In fact, this could be the case in many average players who play at average courses. However, this would not be true when comparing Long-wild or short-straight players who developed their handicaps at a difficult or very easy course. My good friend George Peper, an American living in St. Andrews, devoted a chapter in his book about how his USGA Handicap and his CONGU handicap have absolutely no similarity and are five or more strokes apart.

Here is a link to Mr. Knuth's entire article: http://www.popeofslope.com/scotland/usscothandicaps.html

[ward peyronnin]

As long as i am warm enough and have a caddie or trolley i plan to prevail whether we Ghin , Congu , or Tango, or Gator.

Seriously any advice on how best to arrange for walking aids if backs become delicate ( available on request in situ or prior arrangements with whom ?)

Also will weather be Scottish or "holiday coastal British" or entirely unpredictable?  Never been to this part of the BI.

Thx
Ward Peyronnin

[Eric Smith]

As long as i am warm enough and have a caddie or trolley i plan to prevail whether we Ghin , Congu , or Tango, or Gator.

Seriously any advice on how best to arrange for walking aids if backs become delicate ( available on request in situ or prior arrangements with whom ?)

Also will weather be Scottish or "holiday coastal British" or entirely unpredictable?  Never been to this part of the BI.

Thx
Ward Peyronnin

Here you go Ward:   http://www.caddylocator.com/   This is pretty damn cool if you ask me.  Read the bios -- these are guys that know these courses inside and out...

[Bill_McBride]

Ward, every course I've seen in the UK has a row of trollies availablr for hire, usually in the 5 quid range.

I just emailed the secretary at Royal Porthcawl (office@royalporthcawl.com) requesting a caddy for Friday morning.

Looking forward to seeing you soon!

[Tony_Muldoon]

Nice avatar Mike.

I am sympathetic to the idea that handicapping is a real issue.

a two systems that are not the same.
b try playing to any handicap whan you body is ten hours out of whack and you've just spent a day strapped to a chair.

If a couple of people would email Scott the info we could take a look at his calculations.  May not be perfect but its something to look at.





Guys thoughts about how many strokes are actually allocated in each format?

[Sean_A]

Spangles & Whitty

For the guys staying over night for a game on Sunday, I would suggest switching around to singles in the AM and 4somes in the PM.  

I don't care about handicaps and certainly don't think it is worth some sort of calculations to determine a "revised" handicap, but if folks want to do that I am a 7.9.  

Usually in 4somes, it is the difference of 3/8s the combined handicaps.  Meaning each team adds their caps together.  The lowest team plays off scratch and the other team gets 3/8s the difference.  

I don't know about Chapman, but it must be somewhere around 60% the difference IF we accept that 4ball betterball is 3/4s the difference.  

The weather is the weather!  I would expect highs from between 15 and 20 degrees.  I wouldn't bother with shorts unless you like to wear them under rain bottoms.  I would make sure to bring the right kit to play in rain two days in a row. 

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

I've played Chapman.  It was called something else, I think, but that's what it was.  My memory of it is that it was slow.  Without wanting to rain on anyone's parade (and I'll play whatever people decide and enjoy and compete) if we're palying a 4ball course (which I think Porthcawl is on the Friday), with fourballs in front of us (which there will be), what's wrong with playing fourballs?

I should point out that in my book there are three forms of golf.  Singles, foursomes and fourballs.  Each can be played in medal or match play.  I've never really found a variant of any of those which is as much fun as they are.

I've also played a number of matches where total hole count is kept, rather than just win/half/loss.  Indeed I once played in a fourball match which we won 15 up (lost the first, won the next 16, halved 18).  Again, call me a boring traditionalist but I'd be strongly in favour of just win/loss/half.  Not least to keep the math straightforward.  As a former BUDA captain I reckon you two will be busy enough trying to sort out pairings, work out where people are and keep the thing moving without having to do unnecessary maths.  I also reckon that we're more likely to have a match still "live" on the Sunday with win/half/loss.

I guess what I'm saying is that BUDA has worked brilliantly for several years.  If it ain't bust, why fix it?

[Martin Toal]

The difference between the CONGU and USGA handicap calculations is MASSIVE.

Here is a paragraph from an article written by Dean Knuth, the former Senior Director of the United States Golf Association Handicap Department. As the developer of the USGA's Course Rating and Slope Rating System, Dean became known in golf circles as: The "Pope of Slope".

Here are some of his thoughts about the difference between UK and US handicaps:

Over the years I have had many communications with people who want a simple way to compare British handicaps to American handicaps. Some studies have shown a similarity to handicaps in specific ranges. In fact, this could be the case in many average players who play at average courses. However, this would not be true when comparing Long-wild or short-straight players who developed their handicaps at a difficult or very easy course. My good friend George Peper, an American living in St. Andrews, devoted a chapter in his book about how his USGA Handicap and his CONGU handicap have absolutely no similarity and are five or more strokes apart.

Here is a link to Mr. Knuth's entire article: http://www.popeofslope.com/scotland/usscothandicaps.html

Just read Knuth's article. Interesting, He argues that British course ratings are too low and that is a major factor for the difference in handicaps between US and UK golfers. Of course, one could just as easily argue the equal and opposite point of view that US courses are rated too high. Either way, I agree that a disparity exists,. I have played a number of courses in the US whose course ratings seemed grossly inflated to me compared to what I would have expected SSS to be.

He also says that a weakness in the UK system is that most UK golfers only play 3 to 5 tournaments a year. I am not so sure about this. It depends what the denominator is - all golfers, all club members (remembering this is cheaper and easier in the UK), or those who play in tournaments. I suspect this includes a broader denominator than is necessary, and in actual practice, many players play 30 or 40 tournaments.

[Sean_A]

There is the possibility of the Other Muldoon joining us for all day Sunday - which would also even out the numbers - cha ching.

Ciao

[Bill Brightly]

We play a Chapman for our father-son every year and it is a fun format. The net is calculated by taking 40% of each team's combined handicap. Have fun guys!

[Melvyn Morrow]

Here wishing all you Guys at BUDA a great time. Don’t forget you need passports to get into England and expect a full body search as you enter Welsh airspace. Its only Scotland that has no restrictions, in fact we want you to buy the Single Malt and take it with you.

Have some great Golf and to keep some of you Guys on the straight and narrow feel free to use the following song track – it may help when temptation (well if you think you are lucky enough to be offered a little bit on the side) raises its head or whatever else.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ihHUiQ6LPE

Your Nations expect everyman to do his duty, Sean may be prone to some hyperbole re his scorecard (also HM Government just expects all to pay the duty) – Gentlemen and Scot, here’s hoping that you have fun and enjoy your Golf .

Last one standing please put Bill to bed

Enjoy yourselves

Melvyn

[Richard Muldoon]

Sean,
if the invite is still open I'd love to come, the 'boss' has given her permission.
I just hope the weather's better than last time I played Pennard, torrential rain for 16 holes, so hard you couldn't see where you were going for the 2nd shot on 4 and tee shot on 6. By the end we were the only idiots left on the course.
Despite that we had a blast and my 3 playing partners (first time at Pennard) loved the course and will definately be back. It is a testimony to Pennard that you can play in those conditions and still enjoy yourselves.

Regards

Richard

[Bill_McBride]

"We will fight them on the beaches, we will fight them in the bunkers, we will fight them on the greens....."

USA motto for this year's Buda Cup!   

[Melvyn Morrow]

No spreading a little “oil on troubled waters” – when we Brits try it with a little help from our American friends we seem to get into trouble or is that just politics?

Melvyn

[Sean_A]

Sean,
if the invite is still open I'd love to come, the 'boss' has given her permission.
I just hope the weather's better than last time I played Pennard, torrential rain for 16 holes, so hard you couldn't see where you were going for the 2nd shot on 4 and tee shot on 6. By the end we were the only idiots left on the course.
Despite that we had a blast and my 3 playing partners (first time at Pennard) loved the course and will definately be back. It is a testimony to Pennard that you can play in those conditions and still enjoy yourselves.

Regards

Richard

You, Richard "The Other" Muldoon, are a proper chap and of course you may join us - it is confirmed.  There are only two requirements.  First and foremost, pay me £75 when I next see you - that is assuming you won't try to avoid me in Wales.  Second, smile.

BTW - You lot starting giving up your handicaps or I am reliably told the Committee will assume you are scratch.

BTW II - Pennard has a Sunday lunch for a tenner.  If folks are interested, I need to know by Friday AM. 

Ciao

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