[Jim Franklin]

Adam:

If someone bitches and moans that the greens at WV are over the top -- then they would need to say no less for the greens at Old Macdonald which I also played. There are plenty of pinnable areas at WV and frankly they are a good bit less severe than what you see with Old Macdonald.

Before I played the NW Open was played and the greens were at near 12 stimp speed. They were slightly less than that when I played -- likely around 11 but they did not take away from the course whatsoever in my mind. I wish greens could always be that consistent and true.

Richard:

Good commentrs -- but I see WV ahead of Rustic Canyon -- the topgraphy is more challenmging and WV can easily up the intensity meter in having two par-5 holes played as long par-4 holes if desired. The key for WV is getting a wider audience aware of what is there -- hasrd to imaghine such fine two public courses at two totally different and remote areas of the same state as Old Macdonald and Wine Valley.

SO you favor WV over OM? Are you doing a review of Old Mac anythime soon?

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

Just to be clear -- Old Macdonald is superior when compared against the likes of Wine Valley but WV is ahead of such places like Rustic Canyon and Wild Horse in my mind. Unfortunately, WV is locared in an area of the USA that few people think superior golf can be found.

Given the limitaitonsd that the folks had in putting WV together they have achieved a superior product and one that offers both high quality golf at a very fair and realistic cost. It's a must play for any person traveling through the immediate area.

Jim, Old Macdonald is a sensational course -- in my mind, it's the best of the lot at Bandon and I say that not because of its newness but because of the sheer diversity of the holes and the way the land just fits each of them so well. I will opine on that layout in a separate threasd.

I'll also do a review of each of the holes at WV. The pics places on the 1st hole do not fully explain the nature of the hole and I'll try to do that when I include each of them shortly.

[Matt_Ward]

WV's 1st hole is 430 yards from the tips. It plays from a slightly elevated tee and descends into a downhillk dog-leg right hole. TYhere are two bunkers -- the nearest one on the right is a 245-yard carry and cleverly the architect has added a snake addition to the rear portion of the bunker -- which you cannot see from the tee -- this extends the carry for those who push the ball a bit to roughly 280 yards. Without question -- one must avoid landing anywhere in this bunker as the likelihood of success in hitting the green from it is quite small.

The bunker on the left side is 340 yards from the back tee placement. Golkfers sho opt for the left side will be rewarded with a full view of the putting surface -- the main issue is that you do add a club or two from that spot to reach the surface. Those hitting down the right side and opting to challenge the bunker on that side can get a favorablle bounce of the ball and have it run out a few more yards. In my tee shot -- I reached the 85-yard plate and had a short wedge shot to the target. However, the right side is more uneven in terms of llies - you also have to hit the green coming across the shallower width of the target. As some of the pic posted by others have shown the area just off the green allows for a range of diffetemt shot situations. Recovery is possibly but not an automatic chip and putt for par by any means. The green is also contoured with a small rise in the front left center are and the green appreciably narrows the further to the right rear you go.

The 1st at WV is an excellent starting hole -- birdie is doable but a fast boget or even worse can happen. The background scenery is also a stunning reminder of its stellar location.

[George Freeman]

...In my tee shot -- I reached the 85-yard plate and had a short wedge shot to the target...

Matt,

I measly 345 yards was all you could muster on the opening tee shot?!  Pitiful  

[Jim Franklin]

Matt -

I am glad we agree on the best at Bandon. But both are in my top 10. I look forward to your review.

As for WV, I hope to get out there next year. The trip I took out west last year was among my favorite trips ever. Unfortunately I was unaware of WV or I would have added a day.

[Garland Bayley]

Matt -

I am glad we agree on the best at Bandon. But both are in my top 10. I look forward to your review.

As for WV, I hope to get out there next year. The trip I took out west last year was among my favorite trips ever. Unfortunately I was unaware of WV or I would have added a day.

That was quite a day you missed! 

[Jim Franklin]

Garland -

I heard the stories and wish I could have seen the carnage. Maybe next time.

[Matt_Ward]

George:

It helps to have no wind against you -- and then to have the benefit in having a fairway which is downhill and also including firm turf conditions.

Jim:

I was thoroughly impressed with Old Macdonald and will opine later. WV is a tour de force public layout -- it is prepared correctly and the architecture uses the terrain in a superb fashion. There's ample width for all levels of players and there is enough meat to keep the better player at bay should they not execute flawlessly when called upon.

[Matt_Ward]

WV's 2nd hole is a great counterpoint to the 1st hole.

Instead of going downhill the hole reverses course and heads uphill. The hole turns left but the faiorway shoves balls to the right and it is as smart ploy by the architect that two bunkers are placed inthe area where balls that fade or are pushed can end up. Since WV plays firm and fast it's not too hard for balls hit in that direction can end up there.

There is more room to the left than you might think when standing on the tee. But the visual imagery at the tee says very clearly you don't want to pull a tee shot left and visit the pesky native grasses.

The more daring line down the extreme left side opens up the green which is aboive the fairway for at least one additional club. The green has three distinct parts to it and when placed in the extreme front left section is very challenging -- ditto the extreme rear right side/. For a hole of 390 yards the 2nd is a solid counterpoint to what one faces with the opening hole.

[Bart Bradley]

Matt:

What are the three biggest weaknesses of Wine Valley?

Bart

[Matt_Ward]

Bart:

WV has five par-5 and five par-3 holes. Not all of them are solid -- not to say any of them are weak or poor but having five of each is a tough feat to handle for any architect. Jim Engh is noted for doing this and at times he has done well but not all of his layouts hasve done this successfully.

I believe WV would succeed to an even higher level with a standard formula of four pat-5 holes and four par-3holes -- but make no mistake about it the concept of what is there works well.

[Ed Oden]

Matt, where does Wine Valley fall on your personal list?

[Garland Bayley]

Matt:

What are the three biggest weaknesses of Wine Valley?

Bart

1) About every other person out there says pardner without knowing that Matt owns the copyright and trademark on it.

2) The stream running through the golf course has no water.

3) Some idiot named Slag Bandoon built a bunker on 16 that Matt fell in and fractured a most personal member.

[Matt_Ward]

Ed:

Good question.

I'd have to say it's on the very short list of public courses I have played that offer a fee under $100 (cart included).

Just the marriage between design and turf conditions allows for the ideal blending of fast and firm conditions. You also have the walkability dimensiion plus the playabilioty dimensions for nearly all levels of handicaps.

WV is playable but it doesn't give away the store -- even for top players,

No disrespect to the likes of Wild Horse and Rustic Canyon and others of that ilk -- but WV is ahead of that class. Dan H did a fantastic job in using the existing terrain to create a range of fun holes -- complimented by green sites that are very fair but truly demanding given their pitch and overall speed.

Ed, WV is a must play for any golf design lover -- simple as rthat.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Agree on Matt's assessment.  If you've never been to Sand Hills, visit Wine Valley.  It's built in tribute to Sand Hills (the owner is a SH charter member and Dick Youngscap's college roommate) and Hixson did a damn fine job despite Slag's botched bunker work 
JC

[Ed Oden]

Ed:

Good question.

Matt, I'm glad my question was a good one.  Unfortunately, you didn't answer it.  I didn't ask how Wine Valley compares to other public courses under $100 including cart.  Rather, I asked where it ranks on your personal list of courses played.  Top 50?  Top 100?  Top 200?  Top 500? 

[Bart Bradley]

Bart:

WV has five par-5 and five par-3 holes. Not all of them are solid -- not to say any of them are weak or poor but having five of each is a tough feat to handle for any architect. Jim Engh is noted for doing this and at times he has done well but not all of his layouts hasve done this successfully.

I believe WV would succeed to an even higher level with a standard formula of four pat-5 holes and four par-3holes -- but make no mistake about it the concept of what is there works well.

Yeah Matt:

You didn't answer my question either.  I asked you to give 3 weaknesses of Wine Valley and you only gave me one.

Bart

[Sean Leary]

The name Wine Valley probably doesn't help from a national marketing perspective. Haven't made it there myself yet and I live nearby.

[Jeff Loh]

Is it better than Pound Ridge?

[Richard Choi]

Jeff, perhaps you should start a thread on worst golf course names ever.

[Garland Bayley]

MATT,

WHERE ARE THE PICTURES?

[Bill_McBride]

The name Wine Valley probably doesn't help from a national marketing perspective. Haven't made it there myself yet and I live nearby.

Nearby?  Seattle - Walla Walla per Google Maps, 273 miles 4 hrs 32 min.  You are excused, that's a pretty good trek.

I am hoping to get there next summer........

[Sean Leary]

The name Wine Valley probably doesn't help from a national marketing perspective. Haven't made it there myself yet and I live nearby.

Nearby?  Seattle - Walla Walla per Google Maps, 273 miles 4 hrs 32 min.  You are excused, that's a pretty good trek.

I am hoping to get there next summer........

Close enough so that I feel like I should have played it, but I am never over there...Wine Valley...Some Day.

[Richard Choi]

Leary only hits privates...

Here are some pic to tie you over for a little while...

Hole #1:


Hole #2:


Hole #4:

[Tim Pitner]

The name Wine Valley probably doesn't help from a national marketing perspective. Haven't made it there myself yet and I live nearby.

I don't understand this one--where I come from, the name "Wine Valley" is an inducement, not a deterrent. 

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