[Chris Shaida]

Talk about 'old school' (I couldn't resist, from 1898)

[Chris Shaida]

one more (also 1898) notice the caddie is just bigger than the bag of clubs...

[Fred Yanni]

I mean how hard could it have been to caddy back then?  There are about 6 clubs in those bags.   And there definelty wasn't room for other essential items to have in one's golf bag at all times like;  rain gear, laser range finders, hand warmers, umbrellas, cell phones, blackberrys, extra sweaters, a wind breaker, 24 balls, an extra pair of shoes and a book, ipad or ipod for long waits on tees...  

[Jud_T]

Not only were the bags lighter, but I don't see anyone carrying double in the pictures!  In fact, can anyone produce a pre-1930 picture of a caddy carrying double? 

[PThomas]

Talk about 'old school' (I couldn't resist, from 1898)

granted Chris i am only 426 days away from the big 5-0 , but my younger pictures were at least in black and white, no longer sepia

[Tim Martin]

Tell me the guys that hauled around two gigantic Burton leather bags back in the day loaded with everything in today`s bags except for range finders and cell phones didn`t earn their money. In 1973 an "A" caddy where I carried got $6 a bag and a "B" got $5 a bag. The best bag straps had less padding than a cotton ball and obviously no kickstands. You could only carry doubles if you were an "A".When the day came for the jump to "A" it was a rite of passage and what every kid sitting on that long wooden bench in the caddie area hoped for. If you didn`t cut it and do a good job you never got the bump up. Simple as that. The "B' caddies were used for threesomes and singles but never for 4 players.

[J_ Crisham]

At Beverly in the late 70's we had guys with the huge leather bags and rain gear, shoes ,grips and all kinds of extra shit in case a war started ... We got paid 7.50 for 18 holes and we were happy. Beated shagging balls on the hill as Ricky T was dropping 2 irons on your head for 2 hrs while you wore a batting helmet! Would love to go back to looping in my next life withe light bags and better pay- unfortunately I have to get back to a root canal!    Jack

[Melvyn Morrow]

You want a Caddie  then you must start with the boys from Scotland. Did I say boys?



Melvyn

[Kris Shreiner]

Melvyn,

Great pic...your darn right we have to start with the Scottish boys...eerr with whiskers ! Realize my remarks may have strayed a little, though they were initially addressed to you. I meant nothing personal, just wanted to clarify a few points others might benefit from.

You clearly are not a "caddie hater," and yes folks ,there are PLENTY of them around!


Many that have posted here are correct in that there are various levels of service in the caddie ranks. The veteran caddie that slacks and puts it into auto-pilot for a round is a disgrace. The quality caddie always tries to give their player(s) their best effort every time out.

Now, a player SHOULD also make every effort to work together WITH the caddie(s), just like the caddies themselves NEED to work together efficiently, to deliver a quality experience at a timely pace. While the degree of interaction and information asked for may vary, the strong drive to deliver that service well is paramount.

This is why really effective facility support, coupled with solid training and mentoring is a MUST. If caddie golf is to survive and flourish in these challenging economic times...the experience must be more consistent in it's quality. That is not occurring presently at many facilities.

Take a good look at those pictures folks. Notice the variety of age groups present. If that isn't what golf's about at it's very best, what is?

Cheers,
Kris

[Kevin Pallier]

How often do you take caddies?

Only when I have too

Do you enjoy playing golf with caddies?

I've enjoyed some of the experiences I've had and not others

Would you support a caddy program at your club?

I would support a Jnr golfing program before a caddie program

How do you think caddy golf is important to the game of golf as a whole?

I think for professional golf there is a need but I'm sick to death of seeing caddies line players up on every shot (especially putting). They should ban that aspect IMO and leave more to the golfer themselves.

[JNC Lyon]

How often do you take caddies?

Only when I have too

Do you enjoy playing golf with caddies?

I've enjoyed some of the experiences I've had and not others

Would you support a caddy program at your club?

I would support a Jnr golfing program before a caddie program

What are your reasons for this statement? Doesn't a caddie program teach kids work ethic that a junior golf program (like the First Tee, for instance) just can't teach?  There is no better way to learn about the etiquette of golf and the way the game is played than by watching it from a caddie's perspective.  It seems to me that junior programs can do some good.  However, these programs are usually just more convenient for charitable benefactors.  Donors can simply throw disposable cash at the program and point to some tangible results.  On the hand, it takes some hard work, sweat, and blood to start, run, and sustain a caddie program.  Caddie golf takes commitment that goes beyond putting ink on a check.  However, caddie programs will provide kids with work ethic, knowledge of golf, and interpersonal relationships that they simply would not get through a junior program.

How do you think caddy golf is important to the game of golf as a whole?

I think for professional golf there is a need but I'm sick to death of seeing caddies line players up on every shot (especially putting). They should ban that aspect IMO and leave more to the golfer themselves.

[Kris Shreiner]

JNC,

Well stated! Junior programs certainly have merit, but caddie golf has far more impact and dimensions to it IHMO.

[PCCraig]

Regarding the idea that we need to support caddies in order to promote the game, I disagree.  In this day & age how many golfers ever caddied?  I did, but I caddied BECAUSE I liked golf already.  I'd rather loop than work at Burger King like some of my friends in high school.  So I think there is reverse causality here.  Some kids caddy because they'd already taken a liking to golf, not played golf because they caddied.

That was certainly the case for me.  I was already playing junior tournaments by the time I started caddying.  I wanted a job.  And I could not imagine a better possible job than caddying.  So I caddied, and I loved every second of it.  What could be better?  I'm walking a golf course.  I'm around the game I love.  I get to analyze a lot of good and not so good swings and see what works and what doesn't.  And I'm getting paid for it, to boot!  The way I saw it, there was no better job in the world and I was tickled pink to caddie... I really didn't view it as work, per se. 

I viewed it as getting paid to do something I did every day anyway...the only difference being that I had to let somebody else hit the shots in return for the cash. 

To say that playing golf yourself and caddying for someone else are interchangeable as something to do on a summer afternoon is a complete stretch. I liked caddying, a lot more than going to work at the mall or a restaurant like many of my peers, but it was still work, and hard work at that. Playing golf is as fun as it gets for most of us, but the amount of "fun" loops were pretty rare in reality and were balanced out by the "horrible", but with most of the loops being classified as “fine”…just like any other day in the office for most.  A good caddie provides a service to a select clientele and is paid because it’s a job, not a volunteer service or a light afternoon walk around the golf course.

The best caddies were usually the kids, and adults, that really enjoyed the game and played it themselves. Because they enjoyed it they understood what the role of a caddie was better and in turn did a better job. However, for each kid that came in that already knew how to play golf, there was one that didn't know anything....of those that knew nothing I would say half actually tried to learn and pick up the game.

As a side note, the next time anyone asks their caddie if they play and the caddie responds "yes I do, I'm a +2/scratch/2/4 handicap"...let him hit a shot. You'll be surprised how terrible the swing looks 80% of the time because every caddie always says they are great golfers as none would admit they know nothing about the game.

[Kevin Pallier]

"I would support a Jnr golfing program before a caddie program"

What are your reasons for this statement? Doesn't a caddie program teach kids work ethic that a junior golf program (like the First Tee, for instance) just can't teach?  There is no better way to learn about the etiquette of golf and the way the game is played than by watching it from a caddie's perspective.  It seems to me that junior programs can do some good.  However, these programs are usually just more convenient for charitable benefactors.  Donors can simply throw disposable cash at the program and point to some tangible results.  On the hand, it takes some hard work, sweat, and blood to start, run, and sustain a caddie program.  Caddie golf takes commitment that goes beyond putting ink on a check.  However, caddie programs will provide kids with work ethic, knowledge of golf, and interpersonal relationships that they simply would not get through a junior program.

JNC

Am I correct in that you come from a caddying background ?

I am not privy to the golf programs in the US so can't comment on the specifics of them. However with two young children myself I would be willing to support them via the program listed below which is in Australia

http://www.jnjg.com.au/

There are others throughout the country and my home club and local pro are supporters of junior golf. There may be a golfing cultural difference here ? but caddying is not as prevalent in Aust.

[Kenny Baer]

I like caddies and enjoy taking them, IMO opinion inflation has made the price for the service completely out of whack.  When you are paying $125 to play the course and then another $75 for a caddy it makes it absurd.  It is like going to a restaurant and paying $100 for the meal but having to tip the waiter $65 bucks.

Honestly I have probably played with caddies 50x; in my expierence they are either way to agressive; offering advice when not asked or can't keep up.  My last expierence with one; the poor guy was both to agressive with advice and he could not keep up; more than once I actually hit a club out of another member of our groups bag. He was also swinging my clubs while we waited on several tees; IMO that is just poor form, he is not the only caddy I have seen do that; I can't say I really care but it just gives off a bad vibe.

By far the most enjoyable caddy expierences I have had have been when I was playing alone; in that case there is someone there to keep you company and typically you can talk golf with them.

Carrying 2 bags is the only way they can make a decent days living and when you carry 2 bags it is a very difficult job to do well.

I believe that the caddy profession is such that only high school kids should do it as the cost for their wage is not as expensive.

[JNC Lyon]

"I would support a Jnr golfing program before a caddie program"

What are your reasons for this statement? Doesn't a caddie program teach kids work ethic that a junior golf program (like the First Tee, for instance) just can't teach?  There is no better way to learn about the etiquette of golf and the way the game is played than by watching it from a caddie's perspective.  It seems to me that junior programs can do some good.  However, these programs are usually just more convenient for charitable benefactors.  Donors can simply throw disposable cash at the program and point to some tangible results.  On the hand, it takes some hard work, sweat, and blood to start, run, and sustain a caddie program.  Caddie golf takes commitment that goes beyond putting ink on a check.  However, caddie programs will provide kids with work ethic, knowledge of golf, and interpersonal relationships that they simply would not get through a junior program.

JNC

Am I correct in that you come from a caddying background ?

I am not privy to the golf programs in the US so can't comment on the specifics of them. However with two young children myself I would be willing to support them via the program listed below which is in Australia

http://www.jnjg.com.au/

There are others throughout the country and my home club and local pro are supporters of junior golf. There may be a golfing cultural difference here ? but caddying is not as prevalent in Aust.

I am from a caddie background, so I guess I am prone to be a big supporter of the institution.  The Jack Newton program looks like a great for sure, and it would be hard not to support it.  However, I think caddie golf and junior golf go hand-in-hand.  Junior golf can be problematic in this country.  Generally, the junior golf system is now such that there are hundreds upon hundreds of kids whose entire life is focused on playing golf.  The impression now is that to be a great player, a junior player has to play golf as a full-time job, with his parents shuttling him from tournament to tournament.  I see this new phenomenon as being poisonous.  One in 500 becomes Peter Uihlein.  The others end up only playing golf until they are done with college, and they then have to start contributing in the real world. The "all junior golf, all the time" mentality does not set up kids for that real world very well.  If these kids aren't either really lucky or really wealthy, they will not get any of the work ethic and personal relationships that the real world requires.

I also did a little digging into Australia's caddie history with some limited results.  I pulled up the name of arguably the greatest Australian golfer of all-time: Peter Thomson.  The five-time Open Champ appears to be a supporter of caddie golf, though it is hard to tell if he caddied himself.  He was even a mentor to the world's most famous professional caddie, New Zealander Steve Williams.

[Peter Pallotta]

Dave, this struck me:

"In short, we've seen the concept of caddying go from an easy-to-get part-time job that's a way for a kid to make a few bucks to supplement the family income to a full-time job that is an income unto itself."

What would it take to go back, to have the concept of caddying return to an easy-to-get part time summer job?  

Maybe in most places and most cases, most 13-17 year olds potential caddies won't need the money to supplment the family income. But neither do the whole bunch of kids working n fast food places for some pocket money.  What are they getting there - $8 dollars an hour?

Wouldn't most kids want to work outisde for 5 hours and then have some time to chip and putt and maybe get on the course late in the day for free?

Do most clubs simply not want (or simply don't think feasible) a return to a caddie pool of 14 year olds working for $9 an hour and available to golfers/members only when they want them?

Peter

[Scott Warren]

Shivas, you make a fair point.

At Cinque Ports we play in 3-3.5hrs without exception.

UK minimum wage is £3.57/hour for under-18s, £4.83/hour for those aged 18-21 and £5.80/hour for over-21s.

At even £40 for 18 holes they are earning - even if we call the round 4hrs - more than double the minimum wage if under 21 and close to double if they are over 21.

If you're a skilled, quality caddie that's probably fair, but the caddies I have seen playing partners use are effectively bag carriers.

At £15-20 a round a young kid would be getting above minimum wage to walk the links as a bag carrier, and at £30 a more experienced looper is still getting double the minimum wage.

I work for a financial publishing house and it is shocking to now realise that, at £40 a round or more, a caddie is getting more per hour than the degree qualified freelancers we contract proofing/editing work to!

[PCCraig]

I think we're all supporters of caddie golf.  The questions are:  (1) who's doing it?; (2) how well do they do it; and (3) what is caddying worth?  

If those picture on the prior page show anything, they show that the caddie has most certainly changed over the years.  They've gone from:

 (1) single-bag toting kids, who out of necessity are willing to work hard to make a bare minimum wage to help the family put a little extra food on the table or pay for new school shoes or mittens or whatever
to

(2) a far-too-high percentage of self-entitled grown or nearly grown men who for Lord-only-knows what reason, think they're owed something, and believe they're entitled to carry two bags at once, providing each golfer with maybe 3/4 of full-service, and demanding pay not only for time they work, but also for the time they don't -- at waaaaaaaay higher than the minimum wage (bordering on skilled professional wages, like plumbers or carpenters), all so they can pay their private college tuition in Boston or wherehaveyou!  

In short, we've seen the concept of caddying go from an easy-to-get part-time job that's a way for a kid to make a few bucks to supplement the family income to a full-time job that is an income unto itself.  

So what's a caddie worth?  Well, my usual answer to that would be "whatever the free market is willing to bear".  

Unfortunately, however, we never find out what the market for caddies is willing to bear, do we?  In most cases, taking caddies is mandatory, and the price to be paid is pre-determined.  The free market is bound & gagged, and never gets a chance to speak.  

My hunch is that if the market actually had a chance to speak, a caddie would be able to charge the same type of rates people are willing to pay for other personal services, like lawn mowing or snow shoveling.  That's usually about $8-10 an hour.  Call it $32-50 a bag for a great job, depending on how long the round takes.  And I'm not even sure they could get that, to be honest, because the work isn't as hard as lawnmowing or snow shoveling, and it's a lot more pleasant.   And they sure as heck wouldn't get it for doubles, because by definition, they're doing less than all of the job - like a kid who shovels your driveway, but not your sidewalk.

Let's face facts:  without mandatory caddies, the caddie would be dead, or at least on life support.  Why?  The answer is simple:  notwithstanding all the bluster about how it's such hard, important work, caddies are simply not worth what they charge today to most people.  That's why they have to be mandated.  If they were worth what they charge, they wouldn't need to be, would they?  

The proof?  Show me a club that requires its members to purchase beer.  

I'm just trying to lay out the dynamic as I see it.   Don't take this as sour grapes about caddies.  I love caddies.  And I absolutely love the Evans Scholar program.  Why?  Because I know that every nickel I give to it is going to a kid that appreciated the opportunity he had, gave the proverbial 110% and worked his ass off.  I do not feel the same way about the slacker, self-entitled half-job doers that dilute the caddie ranks today.  In a true free market, they'd never get a loop, and when they did, they'd get stiffed (or should I say "paid appropriately") for the half-ass job they do.  

In my opinion the free market has already spoken, but each club and their members are obviously free to make their own rules. If you and your fellow members at Exmoor (and anyone else who plays at a club with manditory caddies) have such an issue with the current state of caddies why not A) place a limit on how many bags a caddie can carry, B) place an age limit on caddies, and C) dictate the maximum caddy fee per hour spent on the course.

Caddies are independant contractors and have no employment rights whatsoever, so memberships can dictate exactly who may caddy and when. Problem solved, right?

The proof?  Show me a club that requires its members to purchase beer.  

Like a food minimum?

[PCCraig]

Like a food minimum?

No, Pat, not like a food minimum.  A beer minimum. 

What’s the difference?

[Peter Pallotta]

Dave - I think you have laid it out well, including the relative services performed. And in the context it's hard for me not to come to the conclusion that a) there'd be plenty of 13-17 year olds willing and able to get to a course and single-bag it for $40 dollars, 3 or 4 times a week, b) there'd be enough golfers a a healthy club willing and able to occasionally take a caddie and pay them $40, and c) with all the golfers/members at a healthy club occasionally taking a caddie along, there'd be enough bags per week to have a healthy sized caddie pool of teenagers each making betwen $120-$160 a week for a nice summer job. And if all of that is correct, it's hard not to come to the conclusion that most healthy clubs simply would rather not have such a caddie pool, and that they would rather have the money go into their own pockwets (via cart rental fees) than into the pockets of a group of teeangers interested in being out on a golf course.  I don't have to pay the bills so this is easy for me to say -- but that's the definition of short-sightedness.

Peter

[Jud_T]

A beer minimum is something I can get behind..."Honey, I only had 8 Unibreau's, and besides we've got $300 left on the minimum to burn through and the season's effectively over in 6 weeks.  As a matter of fact, now that I look at the numbers, I'm going to head back over to the men's grill for a couple more.".....

[PCCraig]

In my opinion the free market has already spoken, but each club and their members are obviously free to make their own rules. If you and your fellow members at Exmoor (and anyone else who plays at a club with manditory caddies) have such an issue with the current state of caddies why not A) place a limit on how many bags a caddie can carry, B) place an age limit on caddies, and C) dictate the maximum caddy fee per hour spent on the course.

Pat, if you'd bothered to read, you'd know that the issue is a general one, not specific to any place.  This is also an issue I've spoken to for many years, so it has nothing to do with my club or any other in particular (the caddies at my club are generally quite good, BTW).  The issue is the bad apples that spoil every bunch.  What passes for good caddying has been dumbed down to the point that it's unrecognizeable to people who know what a good caddie used to do 20 or 30 years ago.  Generally, a free market would react to that, generally.  But like I said, the rules for 95% of the market participants are set by 5% of the market participants.  That's the way it is.  It's not going to change, nor necessarily should it, for a variety of perfectly good and sensical reasons.  But to call it a free market simply isn't true.

My point is if there is a general issue with caddies, and there seems to be from the many responses on this thread, then why don't members and the various clubs that still offer them not do something about it? A member could bring up the points I made above to a general Board of Directors as a macro response, or on a micro level a club could have a more strict caddie grading system. Most members check "excellent" because it's the easiest option, why not impliment a policy where 3 "strikes" and the caddy is no longer allowed to work there anymore.

If this is a major issue then the club's where caddies are available should change their policies on caddies. What is stopping them? As far as I know there is no Caddie Union, so the memberships can obviously do what they please.

[PThomas]

sincere questions from someone without a llot of experince with caddies:

Shivas raised the issue of stiffing a caddy:  do people do this? 

he also raised the point about older people caddying and delivering newspapers...did this start because of a lack of good jobs for people?

also, others have raised the point that caddies' pay is not , for ex, $50/4hours = $12.50 an hour, since often times they have been sitting around for an hour or two, which to some then lowers their horly wage accordingly...although, $50/6 = $8something an hour, which is still above the min. wage!................

...............anyway, is a way to get around this for clubs to require their members to make tee times when caddies are required?...but i wouldnt want that if i was  a member, since what if i want to come out and play at the last minute?

[Jud_T]

The problem is that most clubs fear, perhaps rightly so, that if caddies aren't required, that the caddy program will essentially die as the vast majority of members will choose carts.  For whatever reason there aren't enough kids and/or there are mediocre older guys who have seniority.  Many of these clubs are in wealthy neighborhoods where most kids are too busy working on buffing up their college resumes by going abroad, doing advanced study, or going to specialty sports camps, etc..  For whatever reason, there isn't enough recruiting going on in the poorer neighborhoods for these jobs, which would obviously be a better experience than flipping burgers for the summer.  The real answer as Shiv says is to get rid of the requirement and let guys looking for a loop show up as independant contractors as they do in the U.K.  Also a much stricter policy about caddy ratings must be enforced.  If a guy's an A caddy he better not get very many complaints.  And make the courses walking only unless you have a medical excuse, but there goes the cart revenue and we're back to square one!

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