[Tommy Williamsen]

What makes playing a golf course attractive to us ?

I want a course to make me think about the shot at hand.   Sometimes I want options.  Should I hit it here for the best angle into the green or best place on the green for a birdie putt?  Sometimes I want the architect to demand a certain shot: ie a fade or draw or distance control.  I don’t want either exclusively.   
I want the greens complexes to allow for creativity.  My favorite shots are the short par saving shots when I miss the greens.  I love being able to visualize a shot from off the green to set up a par save.  I don’t just want easy chips or bunker shots.  I want long rough, closely mown grass, bumps and hollows, deep greenside bunkers, and bunkers that are set away from the greens.  I like smallish greens that demand accurate iron shots.  I really do not like big greens that allow a poorly hit shot to be putted.  I do realize that putting on huge greens like the ones on the Old Course, require imagination, but I want more than imaginative long putts.
Therein lie the fun and challenge for me.

I played Atlantic the year it opened and a few years ago.  It has gotten better, but I liked it the first time I played it.
I like a lot of Fazio, Rees, Nicklaus, and even Art Hills, who have taken hits on this site.  They also have some courses that I found almost dreadful.
Let me just pick Black Diamond, which is one of Fazio’s more heralded designs.  I think the holes around the quarry are tremendous and the back nine very, very strong.  I found the front nine rather forgettable. 

It is indeed a big world out there.  I can love a course like Westward Ho! and its patchy conditioning and very odd holes around the great sea rushes and a finely manicured parkland course like Kinloch.  The reason is because both do what I described above.
 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Belvedere Golf Club in Charlevoix, Michigan (built 1925-1927) used 115 men and 5 teams of horses to build the course.

How do you know that NO mechanized equipment was used ?

Logic and reading comprehension. 

That's cute, but not reliable source information.

What evidence can you cite that clearly excludes any mechanized equipment from being used during construction ?

[JC Jones]

Pat,

Belvedere Golf Club in Charlevoix, Michigan (built 1925-1927) used 115 men and 5 teams of horses to build the course.

How do you know that NO mechanized equipment was used ?

Logic and reading comprehension. 

That's cute, but not reliable source information.

What evidence can you cite that clearly excludes any mechanized equipment from being used during construction ?

The direct quote from the club history is this:

"One hundred and fifteen men at $.35 per hour, and five teams of horses at $4.00 per day, were put to work..."

If you are going to try and argue that because the club history does not specifically omit the use of mechanized equipment during construction then there is just no helping your failures in logic and reading comprehension.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JC,

OF course I'm going to dispute your conclusion.

Are we also to assume, based on your reading that no foreman, no supervisory personel or architect were involved ?
That 115 workmen along with five teams of horses devined the design and construction of the golf course absent direction from others.
That no trucks, tractors or earthmoving equipment was used ?
That the bunker sand was carried in and dispersed by hand ?
That no rock was encountered and no shaping performed ?

If that's your reasoning and use of logic based on your reading comprehension, I suggest you seek refresher courses.

[JC Jones]

JC,

OF course I'm going to dispute your conclusion.

Are we also to assume, based on your reading that no foreman, no supervisory personel or architect were involved ?
That 115 workmen along with five teams of horses devined the design and construction of the golf course absent direction from others.
That no trucks, tractors or earthmoving equipment was used ?
That the bunker sand was carried in and dispersed by hand ?
That no rock was encountered and no shaping performed ?

If that's your reasoning and use of logic based on your reading comprehension, I suggest you seek refresher courses.

Willie Watson was the architect.  I didn't give you that because it wasn't relevant.

If you apply your own logic to the CBM thread then, UNLESS CBM specifically states that Emmett, Whigham or anyone else should not share design credit with him, we are not to believe from reading Scotland's Gift that he is the one (lead) architect.

The club history goes into some pretty good detail on who was the architect, the construction company, the labor and horses, the cost, etc., etc.  Logic would have you believe that if earth shaping was done using a mechanized device that it would have been mentioned.  Trucking in sand, irrigation pipe, etc. is preparation for construction, not ACTUAL construction.  And, the point of bringing up mechanized devices is with respect to earth shaping. 

Here is a question for you, if you have mechanized devices to shape the earth WHY USE HIRE HORSES?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Belvedere Golf Club in Charlevoix, Michigan (built 1925-1927) used 115 men and 5 teams of horses to build the course.

How do you know that NO mechanized equipment was used ?

Logic and reading comprehension.  

I have news for you.

Your reading comprehension sucks.

The club history says that 150 men worked on the golf course, NOT 115 as you stated, based on your alleged reading comprehension skills.

Might I suggest a refresher course at a nearby institution of higher learning.

Here's the quote from the club's website.

he membership of the Belvedere Golf Club is proud of its course and its history. The Club was founded in 1925 with the course opening for play in 1927. Golf course architecture was simpler in the 20's when our course was built with 150 men and 5 teams of horses. Like Augusta National, the Scottish resort courses and other golf courses of the era, "The Belvedere" offers challenging 3 and 4 pars, with 5 pars that reward aggressive play with birdie and eagle opportunities.

[JC Jones]

Poor Pat.  You've lost the argument and now you try to discredit on an ASSUMED factual error.  Unfortunately, a factual error has occurred, and it is on the website.

Here is a copy of the relevant page from the 1969 course history:



Next time you quote a club history, make sure you are quoting an ACTUAL club history and not a website.

[John Moore II]

Poor Pat.  You've lost the argument and now you try to discredit on an ASSUMED factual error.  Unfortunately, a factual error has occurred, and it is on the website.

Here is a copy of the relevant page from the 1969 course history:

Please repost the image of the page using Photobucket. Otherwise it doesn't come up.

[JC Jones]

Poor Pat.  You've lost the argument and now you try to discredit on an ASSUMED factual error.  Unfortunately, a factual error has occurred, and it is on the website.

Here is a copy of the relevant page from the 1969 course history:

Please repost the image of the page using Photobucket. Otherwise it doesn't come up.

Thanks for the heads up.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I haven't lost any argument.

The fact that the club's website appears to be in error is no fault of mine.

However, the statement in the club's history is NOT exclusionary.
Just because 115 men and 5 teams of horses worked on the property doesn't mean that mechanized equipment wasn't used.

I doubt the eight miles of wrought Iron Pipe was carried by hand/horse onto the site.

And, I'll bet that photos circa 1925-1927 show mechanized equipment on site

[JC Jones]

I haven't lost any argument.

The fact that the club's website appears to be in error is no fault of mine.

However, the statement in the club's history is NOT exclusionary.
Just because 115 men and 5 teams of horses worked on the property doesn't mean that mechanized equipment wasn't used.

I doubt the eight miles of wrought Iron Pipe was carried by hand/horse onto the site.

And, I'll bet that photos circa 1925-1927 show mechanized equipment on site

The club history doesn't exclude the possibility that there were unicorns and leprechauns on site during construction either.

Re-read my previous post (post #79).  Preparation for construction is not construction AND your discussion of mechanized equipment was in the context of earth moving.

Now, answer the question I asked you.

[Steve Lang]

   how things were done in Michigan back then,..  when the Railroad and Lumber Barons were developers..



Charlevoix has a rich history due to the Lake and safe harbor there.. like many places in the early 20th century, when the railroad served you, they served you..
from http://cedarcreekvoice.wordpress.com/2009/05/03/charlevoix-and-the-beaver-island-archipelago-theres-more-to-explore-in-michigan/
Charlevoix was permanently settled in the post-Civil War era. In the 1880s, Several professors from the University of Chicago formed the Chicago Club Summer Home association. It wasn’t long before the city became known as a resort destination. With three summer associations (the Chicago Club, Sequanota Club, and the Belvedere Club), a number of extravagant summer hotels, including The Inn and The Beach, and with rail service at two train depots on the Pere Marquette Railway line, (one depot for the Belvedere Club on the south side of Round Lake and one on the north side near the Chicago Club), Charlevoix became known as one of the nation’s finest summer communities.
 
Charlevoix was once a popular destination for many passenger liners, including the Manitou, Alabama, North American, South American, Milwaukee Clipper, Illinois, and others

The PM Railway could bring in anything to Belvedere's front door

[Patrick_Mucci]

I haven't lost any argument.

The fact that the club's website appears to be in error is no fault of mine.

However, the statement in the club's history is NOT exclusionary.
Just because 115 men and 5 teams of horses worked on the property doesn't mean that mechanized equipment wasn't used.

I doubt the eight miles of wrought Iron Pipe was carried by hand/horse onto the site.

And, I'll bet that photos circa 1925-1927 show mechanized equipment on site

The club history doesn't exclude the possibility that there were unicorns and leprechauns on site during construction either.

Re-read my previous post (post #79).  Preparation for construction is not construction AND your discussion of mechanized equipment was in the context of earth moving.

JC, are you a contractor ?
Preparation for construction is not construction ?
So, if dynamite and dozers were used to remove rock prior to construction of the golf course, ala Yale, that's not the use of mechanized equipment in your eyes.  I'll bet there's a photo somewhere circa 1925 with trucks, tractors or dozers on site

Now, answer the question I asked you.
Since I wasn't there in 1925 I'm not going to be stupid enough to make a proclamation deemed irrefutable regarding the creation of the golf course, that's your area of expertise.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Steve,

I read the same thing that you did about Charlevoix, but tell me, how did material get from the docks and railroad station onto the site ?

Or, are you and JC maintaining that motorized/mechanized equipment hadn't been discovered and put into use in Charlevoix in 1925.

[JC Jones]

I haven't lost any argument.

The fact that the club's website appears to be in error is no fault of mine.

However, the statement in the club's history is NOT exclusionary.
Just because 115 men and 5 teams of horses worked on the property doesn't mean that mechanized equipment wasn't used.

I doubt the eight miles of wrought Iron Pipe was carried by hand/horse onto the site.

And, I'll bet that photos circa 1925-1927 show mechanized equipment on site

The club history doesn't exclude the possibility that there were unicorns and leprechauns on site during construction either.

Re-read my previous post (post #79).  Preparation for construction is not construction AND your discussion of mechanized equipment was in the context of earth moving.

JC, are you a contractor ?
Preparation for construction is not construction ?
So, if dynamite and dozers were used to remove rock prior to construction of the golf course, ala Yale, that's not the use of mechanized equipment in your eyes.  I'll bet there's a photo somewhere circa 1925 with trucks, tractors or dozers on site

Now, answer the question I asked you.
Since I wasn't there in 1925 I'm not going to be stupid enough to make a proclamation deemed irrefutable regarding the creation of the golf course, that's your area of expertise.

Please READ my post #79.

Your attempts to transition this discussion to one on the existence of trucks/bulldozers/etc. in 1925 is as transparent as my access whoring.  If your position is that trucks and steam shovels existed in 1925 then we are in agreement (again, see my post #79).  But, that is not what you were discussing and not what drew my response.

You were discussing, specifically, EARTH MOVING.  STAY ON TOPIC.  The discussion had nothing to do with trucks moving irrigation pipe to a site or anything of that nature.  You have realized that you have lost this argument so, like usual, you are trying to move the argument to some tangential point.  Unfortunately for you, that generally results in you spouting off about how there are no swamps in Florida.

With respect to what was used to BUILD the golf course, the Belvedere Club History states, specifically, what was used.  I don't care whether you'll bet that there were trucks in a picture or whether trucks were used to deliver the iron pipe for the course.  That has nothing to do with whether mechanized equipment was used to move earth for purposes of building and shaping the golf course.  Why would the club history make a list of all things they DIDN'T use to build the golf course?  It wouldn't.  It would simply list what WAS USED. 

On a related note, does Scotland's Gift specifically list every golf course architect of the times and EXCLUDE them from co-design or lead design credit for NGLA?  I'll answer for you, it doesn't.

Give up now before the egg on the face turns the color of your responses.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Any bacon going with that egg?  

Melvyn

[JC Jones]

Any bacon going with that egg?  

Melvyn

Mr. Mucci is many things but he definitely is no swine.

[Melvyn Morrow]

So that's a NO then

Melvyn

PS Beats counting to 10! 

[Steve Lang]

Steve,

I read the same thing that you did about Charlevoix, but tell me, how did material get from the docks and railroad station onto the site ?

Or, are you and JC maintaining that motorized/mechanized equipment hadn't been discovered and put into use in Charlevoix in 1925.

Patrick,
We have property about 45 minutes south of Charlevoix and I have been in those parts every summer now for 28 years, I've seen many a photo, similar to the wintertime log sled one I previously posted, that depict work done with gangs of men and horse drawn wagons.  I remember one showing collection of field stone.  As I understand it the timber boom years were waning by the mid-1920's and such means of construction labor and materials hauling and delivery were in abundant supply.  A historian who talked at one of our Blue Lake Association meetings talked about the dragging of trees down to the lakes for floating to the mills and horse drawn wagons to the railroad depots into the 1930's.

I will agree totally with you that delivery of materials is part of construction, and that construction is where significant savings are gained or lost in projects .  I'm persuaded that real horsepower was cheaper than mechanized equipment back then for golf course construction.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Your attempts to transition this discussion to one on the existence of trucks/bulldozers/etc. in 1925 is as transparent as my access whoring. 
If your position is that trucks and steam shovels existed in 1925 then we are in agreement (again, see my post #79). 
But, that is not what you were discussing and not what drew my response.

My point has always been that you can't rule out the use of mechanized equipment based on one sentence written 44 years after the fact by someone not involved in the construction of the golf course, because the author mentioned that 115 men and 5 horse teams were used.


You were discussing, specifically, EARTH MOVING.  STAY ON TOPIC. 

I've never gotten off it.

The discussion had nothing to do with trucks moving irrigation pipe to a site or anything of that nature. 

The discussion does involve trucks and their transporting sand, dirt and/or pipe on site.

You have realized that you have lost this argument

Quite the contrary.  My argument remains valid.
You've failed to present any evidence supporting your claim that NO mechanized equipment was used during construction.


so, like usual, you are trying to move the argument to some tangential point. 

No, I remain focused on your failure to produce documented evidence supporting your claim, a claim based on a non-exclusionary sentence that you want to make exclusionary.

Unfortunately for you, that generally results in you spouting off about how there are no swamps in Florida.

You've made a conscious choice to lie in an attempt to deflect attention from your inability to present factual documentation.
Your argument is based solely on one sentence, written 44 years after the fact, by a third party not invovled in the construction of the golf course.
A sentence that doesn't preclude the use of mechanized equipment, foreman, supervisors and other interested parties, let alone mechanized equipment.

Since you've chose lying as a method of operation, I can only say, "false in one, false in many"

With respect to what was used to BUILD the golf course, the Belvedere Club History states, specifically, what was used. 

No, it doesn't.  One sentence merely states that 115 men, paid a fixed low wage were used along with 5 teams of horses.  It doesn't describe the use of foreman, supervisors or others.  You would have us believe that there was no administrative or field heirarchy, nor any mechanized equipment put to use, yet, there are no documents to support your claim.

I don't care whether you'll bet that there were trucks in a picture or whether trucks were used to deliver the iron pipe for the course. 
That has nothing to do with whether mechanized equipment was used to move earth for purposes of building and shaping the golf course.

If they used trucks for one purpose, it stands to reason that they used trucks for other purposes, including the delivery of sand to the bunkers and dirt excavation, removal or transportation.  You've yet to produce any evidence/source documentation stating that no mechanized equipment was used.
 
Why would the club history make a list of all things they DIDN'T use to build the golf course? 

They wouldn't, but that doesn't mean that a list of things used to build a golf course was all inclusive, especially when the list is in the form of a single sentence written 44 years after the fact by a man not involved in the construction process.

On a related note, does Scotland's Gift specifically list every golf course architect of the times and EXCLUDE them from co-design or lead design credit for NGLA?  I'll answer for you, it doesn't.

It doesn't have to, "Scotland's Gift" is authored by "the" involved party, not an uninvolved party 44 years removed..
CBM declared who helped him.
And, it's not as if there was an abundance of "architects" available to assist him.
But, beyond that, it was CBM's vision along with his researched that allowed him to conceive of NGLA.
NGLA wasn't the brainchild of anyone else but CBM.
I'm content to take him at his word, in exclusionary fashion, with regards to who contributed to NGLA.

I'm not prepared to expand a sentence that simply mentions 115 men and 5 horse teams to the universal exclusion of everyone and everything else, including foreman, supervisory personel, administrative and field personel and mechanized equipment.
That's your reasoning, as flawed as it is.

Give up now before the egg on the face turns the color of your responses.

Shirley, you must be kidding.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Steve,

I read the same thing that you did about Charlevoix, but tell me, how did material get from the docks and railroad station onto the site ?

Or, are you and JC maintaining that motorized/mechanized equipment hadn't been discovered and put into use in Charlevoix in 1925.

Patrick,
We have property about 45 minutes south of Charlevoix and I have been in those parts every summer now for 28 years, I've seen many a photo, similar to the wintertime log sled one I previously posted, that depict work done with gangs of men and horse drawn wagons.  I remember one showing collection of field stone.  As I understand it the timber boom years were waning by the mid-1920's and such means of construction labor and materials hauling and delivery were in abundant supply.  A historian who talked at one of our Blue Lake Association meetings talked about the dragging of trees down to the lakes for floating to the mills and horse drawn wagons to the railroad depots into the 1930's.

I will agree totally with you that delivery of materials is part of construction, and that construction is where significant savings are gained or lost in projects .  I'm persuaded that real horsepower was cheaper than mechanized equipment back then for golf course construction.

Steve,.

I don't disagree with anything you said, but, I'm not prepared to interpret a sentence that mentions 115 men and 5 horse teams as being totally exclusionary, without seeing any supporting documentation.

To date, JC Jones has failed to produce any such documentation.

I suspect that photos depicting mechanized equipment on site during the construction phase will surface eventually, leaving JC 0-3.

[Bill_McBride]

It makes sense that mechanized equipment would be used as it became available (and affordable!), but I've read enough about big crews of men and teams of horses building courses to know there was intermingling where mechanical equipment was available and affordable.

During the Depression there was probably a reliance on human labor for lack of capital.

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