[Dean Stokes]

Putt out + Play by the rules + Post your scores = Money in the bank

I play a fair amount of golf with a wide variety of people and I don't see many with real handicaps because they are posting scores without really finishing a golf hole. When someone tells me "that's good" I generally say thank you, but then putt out  for handicap purposes.

I have 2 kids in college, so I love playing people with Hollywood handicaps.

It's not all the system.

BINGO....PUTT IT OUT....side breaking short putts of three feet or less will do more to solve the handicap problem than any distance issues...AGREE  100%...

DOUBLE BINGO......TRY NO MULLIGANS....TRY PLAYING THE BALL AS IT LIES.....how about more club strokeplay events, perhaps a Wednesday medal where you have chance to play with a scorecard in your hand that means something. Most guys I play with play matchplay games and then enter scores in the computer.....how can that possibly work for a true handicap? There is no way their handicap will ever travel.

[Jim Nugent]

The way to solve this problem is simple.  I would create course ratings created by actual playing results.  You would need individuals across the handicap spectrum and you would need to make sure those individuals are following the rules to create such a result, but I would bet the handicaps would travel more equally.  

Agree. And as the statistician on this board, it's so easy to do.

Without knowing the formula, doesn't handicap depend on CR and slope?  i.e. do we have a chicken and egg problem here?  

Actually, we already may have the problem, in reverse: CR and slope depend on handicap. 

Not correct, course rating and slope are based on the effective playing length of the course and the 10 obstacle factors.

I thought they were based on what a scratch golfer (CR) and bogey golfer (slope) would score on the course.  No? 

[Tom Huckaby]

Some interesting takes here.

Just one thing:  I am one of those course raters several seem to be blaming for their issues here.  Please do understand that it's not US... we have very very little subjectivity in what we do.  The system determines everything.  So if you don't like a rating, don't blame us... blame the system.

Count me among those who believe the system works well enough, when applied correctly.  It's when people don't do that that it fails.  But look at it this way... those who don't follow the rules achieve the ego handicaps, and those are the ones you want to bet heavily against.   

As for publicizing bogey rating, decreasing emphasis on high slopes, the ideal course being low slop/high CR, these were things I'd started trumpeting in here and elsewhere at least a decade ago.  But it is good to have support!   

[JohnV]

As for publicizing bogey rating, decreasing emphasis on high slopes, the ideal course being low slop/high CR, these were things I'd started trumpeting in here and elsewhere at least a decade ago.  But it is good to have support!   

Tom, I hate wet courses also.

[Jason Topp]

Some interesting takes here.

Just one thing:  I am one of those course raters several seem to be blaming for their issues here.  Please do understand that it's not US... we have very very little subjectivity in what we do.  The system determines everything.  So if you don't like a rating, don't blame us... blame the system.

Tom:

I do not blame the raters.  I think they do a good job applying the criteria they are given.  I just think real experience would be much more accurate.  I have changed my position a bit based on our prior discussions on this subject in that I believe using tournament scores for ratings purposes would help to make sure the resulting ratings bear a relationship to actual golf rather than the version every day golf scores reflect.

[Jason Topp]

I thought they were based on what a scratch golfer (CR) and bogey golfer (slope) would score on the course.  No? 

Jim - theoretically that is the case.  Here is a link to the manual that shows how those numbers are created
http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-13/

Essentially, they calculate the yardage of the course and adjust the yardage for 10 factors for both the scratch and the bogey player.  The scratch number is the course rating and the bogey number results in the slope rating.

The formula is based on research that shows yardage (taking into account things that make a particular yardage play longer or shorter in a given setting) is by far the most important factor in determining course difficulty. 

However, the actual scores of scratch golfers, bogey golfers and everyone in between would by definition be more accurate than doing this calculation.

[RSLivingston_III]

I am with the posters that mentioned most club members don't post their away rounds and don't end up with a handicap that "travels".

[Tom Huckaby]

Some interesting takes here.

Just one thing:  I am one of those course raters several seem to be blaming for their issues here.  Please do understand that it's not US... we have very very little subjectivity in what we do.  The system determines everything.  So if you don't like a rating, don't blame us... blame the system.

Tom:

I do not blame the raters.  I think they do a good job applying the criteria they are given.  I just think real experience would be much more accurate.  I have changed my position a bit based on our prior discussions on this subject in that I believe using tournament scores for ratings purposes would help to make sure the resulting ratings bear a relationship to actual golf rather than the version every day golf scores reflect.

And again, my take there is that the vast majority of those who have handicaps here in the US don't play enough tournament rounds to make that meaningful.  If they did, then I'd be with you.

[Chris Buie]

There are a lot of different ways to play the game.  I just like to go out and bat it around with friends.  That way is the most fun for me.  I love it.  Handicaps and incredibly tedious rules do not make the game more fun for me.  I want nothing to do with anything that diminishes the joy of the game.  I disdain anything that diminishes the pleasure.
Just my perspective.  I respect that others approach the game in their own way - but I do wonder if they have as much enjoyment.

[Tom Huckaby]

There are a lot of different ways to play the game.  I just like to go out and bat it around with friends.  That way is the most fun for me.  I love it.  Handicaps and incredibly tedious rules do not make the game more fun for me.  I want nothing to do with anything that diminishes the joy of the game.  I disdain anything that diminishes the pleasure.
Just my perspective.  I respect that others approach the game in their own way - but I do wonder if they have as much enjoyment.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, it's a great way to approach the game.  Just don't also try to claim a handicap for any sort of competitive play.

[Jim Nugent]

As for publicizing bogey rating, decreasing emphasis on high slopes, the ideal course being low slop/high CR, these were things I'd started trumpeting in here and elsewhere at least a decade ago.  But it is good to have support!   

Tom, I believe they should drop slope altogether.  Put bogey rating in its place.  Slope confuses and covers up how hard the course is for the average golfer.  Bogey gives that information instantly and about perfectly. 

Jim - theoretically that is the case...However, the actual scores of scratch golfers, bogey golfers and everyone in between would by definition be more accurate than doing this calculation.

I think I explained my question poorly.  These calculations seem circular to me.  To figure out course rating and slope, you have to know handicap.  But to figure handicap, you have to know course rating and slope (i.e. bogey rating). 

BTW, lots of real interesting points made throughout this thread. 

[Tom Huckaby]

Jim - if you mean in terms of what is published, put on scorecards, etc. then yes I wholly agree:  drop slope, replace with BR.  That's the point I first starting harping on a decade ago (among other things). 

[Tim Martin]

Hole out your putts. The guy that drags all the 4 and 5 footers for par after his partner is in is usually paying when playing full handicap four ball.This is referred to as a cocktail party handicap.

[Bob Harris]

Jim - if you mean in terms of what is published, put on scorecards, etc. then yes I wholly agree:  drop slope, replace with BR.  That's the point I first starting harping on a decade ago (among other things). 

Tom,

I made the same suggestion about 10 years ago at a rating calibration seminar.  They suggested that the local association or the individual clubs could, but the USGA was not inclined to so.

Bob

[john_stiles]

I think the fact that many do not putt out hurts your handicap.  

Also there is a little bit more involved in traveling and scoring well.  

One factor IMO is when you play 80-95 % of your round at one course,  you get pretty good, or 'comfortable' at all the shots required at your 'home' course.  You know that 'right' is no problem,  or  you 'have' to be short of pin-high, etc.  

In addition,  you get a little complacent at reading putts.  You are not generally honing your reading skills at home.

Then you play other local courses (maybe only once a year at a particular local course),  and all of  sudden,  you are a little unsure about what will happen when your pitch shot goes onto the green.    Suddenly all those 3 to 10 footers, where at home you know the break or at least know it will break only one direction,  become more difficult to sink.

Just as a big general statement,     I think newer courses 'tend' to have more water,  maybe more O.B.,  given all the real estate courses from 1970s to 2000s, etc.   While hazards are figured into the course ratings at each course,  you might not know how the ball bounces or how it feeds towards, or maybe how it plays shorter toward a hazard, or how you can completely play away from the hazard and still make a par or bogey.  You don't have the local knowledge for the hazards that really eat into your score.

IMO,  and an echo from above,  putting out in your usual game will be a great help.  Remember to quickly putt out.

[Carl Rogers]

Riverfront handicaps travel well because of severe challenge on the greens and the the fact that the slope off the white tees is to low at 127, IMO.

The agruement to my statement is the very tight driving course with lots of trees around smallish green sites (the anti Riverfront).

[Mike Cirba]

How about the GCA-meet and greet factor, which I've seen from myself, you've observed in me Mike Young, and I've observed in others, which simply states, "most first rounds of golf with other GCA'ers leave one playing as if they are completely unfamiliar with the game."

My lord, if you think i was horrid playing with you Mike, you should have seen my round with Jamie Slonis, with Tom Paul walking along as "observer".

I would have been better off just tossing the ball along.   

[John Moore II]

Playing by the rules can make a difference in 'traveling handicap' as well. After all, when you are playing in a handicap tournament or outing, you will most likely be forced to adhere to the rules. Here is a short little write-up from this month's Golf Digest.

In 2004, we spied on a foursome to see how many rules violations the made in one round. The answer: 15 of the 34 Rules of Golf were broken (some many times), about 100 penalty strokes would have been applied and members of the group would have been disqualified 10 times. As a follow-up, we sent an editor to Bethpage (N.Y.) State Park in June to play the Black Course with three strangers and secretly monitor their play. Our editor observed the threesome violating the rules 56 times over 18 holes. The most frequent was failing to hole out in stroke play (21 times), improving the lie (13), failing to replay the previous shot after losing a ball (nine) and hitting a moving ball (six). On one hole, a player committed six rules violations that would have resulted in 12 penalty strokes and, eventually, disqualification. Read our '04 article "Which rules do you play by?" at golfdigest.com/go/rules. (Golf Digest, September 2010, Vol. 61, No. 9. Page 50)

Well, that aught to prove why handicaps don't travel well. People simply don't play by the rules when they play on a daily basis.

[Jud_T]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but all this talk about holing out your putts is a bit mistaken.  If someone gives you a putt in match play you HAVE to take it.  However, for handicap scoring you are supposed to give yourself what you would most likely have gotten.  I.e. if you wouldn't realistically have made the remaining putt 50% of the time, give yourself a 2-putt.  Now if guys are just picking up sidehill 3-footers without having them given in a match, that's another story.

[Steve Kline]

I don't think any score from a match at round should be posted. There is simply too much guess work.

[Mike_Young]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but all this talk about holing out your putts is a bit mistaken.  If someone gives you a putt in match play you HAVE to take it.  However, for handicap scoring you are supposed to give yourself what you would most likely have gotten.  I.e. if you wouldn't realistically have made the remaining putt 50% of the time, give yourself a 2-putt.  Now if guys are just picking up sidehill 3-footers without having them given in a match, that's another story.

Jud,
In theory you can't figure handicaps off of match play scores....handicaps are medal play scores only...

[Jud_T]

I agree in theory, however according to the USGA:

Scores in All Forms of Competition

Scores in both match play and stroke play must be posted for handicap purposes. This includes scores made in match play, in multi-ball, or in team competitions in which players have not completed one or more holes or in which players are requested to pick up when out of contention on a hole. (See Decision 5-1c/1 and Section 4.)

[John Moore II]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but all this talk about holing out your putts is a bit mistaken.  If someone gives you a putt in match play you HAVE to take it.  However, for handicap scoring you are supposed to give yourself what you would most likely have gotten.  I.e. if you wouldn't realistically have made the remaining putt 50% of the time, give yourself a 2-putt.  Now if guys are just picking up sidehill 3-footers without having them given in a match, that's another story.

You are indeed correct. Now, how many rounds played at American country clubs are contested at match play? 5% at most, I'd say.

[Jud_T]

? As far as my experience goes, the vast majority of club games are some form of match play.  Nothing infuriates a club player more than some guest who always insists on putting out for his double when he's out of the hole...

[Tim Martin]

I would think that 5% is pretty low when trying to estimate the number of rounds using the matchplay format. Where does this number come from?

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