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Mike_Young

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What is the one thing that modern architects (NLG's  NOW LIVE GUYS)  have working in their favor when it comes to golf course design that the ODG's did not have ?....of ocurse it will be opinion but want to see some before I give mine...for what that's worth... ;D
« Last Edit: August 19, 2010, 11:21:48 PM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

David_Elvins

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Re: What is the biggest advantage that NLG's have over the ODG's
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2010, 11:23:43 PM »
Getting paid to design golf courses.  

having the ODGs to study. 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Mike McGuire

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Re: What is the biggest advantage that NLG's have over the ODG's
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2010, 11:25:34 PM »
D7's

Anthony Gray

Re: What is the biggest advantage that NLG's have over the ODG's
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2010, 07:30:50 AM »



  You spelled of course wrong.

  Anthony


Dan Herrmann

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Re: What is the biggest advantage that NLG's have over the ODG's
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2010, 08:12:49 AM »
There's a TON of science today that wasn't there in the ODG era.

JESII

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Re: What is the biggest advantage that NLG's have over the ODG's
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2010, 08:14:43 AM »
Open internet forums to gather ideas and advice...

JESII

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Re: What is the biggest advantage that NLG's have over the ODG's
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2010, 08:15:09 AM »
Now that's funny...I don't care who you are, that's funny...

PCCraig

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Re: What is the biggest advantage that NLG's have over the ODG's
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2010, 08:18:03 AM »
Computers and proper topo maps I could imagine are a big help. Plus the ability to travel quicker and to study past works including the ODG's.
H.P.S.

Jamie Barber

Re: What is the biggest advantage that NLG's have over the ODG's
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2010, 08:36:30 AM »
I'd guess heavy machinery. You can put in/remove features as required, but with horse&cart/hand tools it wouldn't have been so easy.

Bill_McBride

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Re: What is the biggest advantage that NLG's have over the ODG's
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2010, 08:40:30 AM »
GPS

Mike_Young

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Re: What is the biggest advantage that NLG's have over the ODG's
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2010, 08:47:31 AM »



  You spelled of course wrong.

  Anthony


Oh..and we now have spellcheck...they never had that...For some Trivia....Check out the digit "3" on DR drawings from the early 20's..if Walter Johnson typed it the top half of the three on his typewriter was chipped...now that is knowing some ODG trivia..  right????
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Young

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Re: What is the biggest advantage that NLG's have over the ODG's
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2010, 08:55:21 AM »
I thunk Pat hit on it....
Speed of travel....IMHO ...as most can agree golf design is a self-annointing trade....it is so small you can really call it a on going business or profession....and all types of efforts have been made to "justify " piles of drawings on top of drawings....but in the end the quality of the course is usually tied into the number of quality visits and amount of time the architect was there....And now it much easier to do so than 75 years ago....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: What is the biggest advantage that NLG's have over the ODG's
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2010, 09:58:46 AM »
Mike
I thought more site visits are easier if you have sites all over the place.
Site visits were just as easy when staying at one course.

The travel deal is being able to see more ODG's

Computers & GPS
You may not think much of the value of most NLGs drawings - as long as you don't lump me in that camp - I am not your usual NLG.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Mike_Young

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Re: What is the biggest advantage that NLG's have over the ODG's
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2010, 01:33:52 PM »
Mike
I thought more site visits are easier if you have sites all over the place.
Site visits were just as easy when staying at one course.

The travel deal is being able to see more ODG's

Computers & GPS
You may not think much of the value of most NLGs drawings - as long as you don't lump me in that camp - I am not your usual NLG.

Your right about visits being easier if you are in one or even two places..but some of the revered ODG's or at least one is credited with 400 courses....come on..that is a slap in the face to other ODG's to say that one guy designed 400 golf courses.....he may have drawn 400 routing plans....
AND that brings me to drawings....there would be a lot more woodcarvers and sculptors if they could send a drawing to someone to do the it and they get the credit....I am not lumping you or anyone into any camp here....all I am saying is the best golf courses have the most site visits by the guy in charge...IMHO....
The entire business if one wishes to call it that....and I'm not sure we can because I don't know how many people in the history of golf design have been able to make it solely on their design drawings and visits....most were either TFB's( Trust Fund Babies), had sold a business and were doing what they could when they could, were in other facets of the golf business or is the case now..many of their wives work.  So it is not really a viable business for nearly as many people as some would make you think.....
Every golf design has two common traits...  1.  two tee markers and 2. a 4.25 inch diameter cup somewhere out there....what one chooses to put between those two areas is a matter of what the client and designer choose.  And I could care less how it is done...drawings, GPS, CAD or none....what matters is that there be a functioning golf course that can be played when it is finished.  And if the client likes it then more work will come.  Our problem here is that so many of the so called "big-time" projects cannot self sustain yet every conference one attends they are used as the examples to tell us all how to do it....Anyway..no where did it say I didn't place much value in the drawings of anyone...I even do a few...I've just never played a drawing ;D  Cheers...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Richard Choi

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Re: What is the biggest advantage that NLG's have over the ODG's
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2010, 01:47:53 PM »
I think there is no questions that NLG's have it easy from faster travel to better equipment to more turf knowledge and choices.

My question is, is that still enough to overcome the fact that ODG's had MUCH better land to work with?

Sean Eidson

Re: What is the biggest advantage that NLG's have over the ODG's
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2010, 02:44:01 PM »
All architecture is about making design choices within a set of constraints.

Some constraints are the same, like the fact that you have to select grass that will grow in that climate.  Others are different, like the ability to travel around the world in hours, not weeks.

The NLG have constraints that are different, like environmental concerns.  But, from an equipment perspective, they're working with Ferrari's and the ODG are in horse and buggy.  There are just much, much fewer constraints for the NLG.

One could argue that having more constraints, like the ODG, forces more careful planning, closer evaluation of every step of the process and ultimately a better product because they were forced to make many more choices within a larger set of constraints.  With each choice they're forced to make, genius is revealed when they make the right decision.

Whistling Straits or Liberty National seem like the outcome when you have zero constraints.  Herb Kohler bragged that "I gave him an unlimited budget and he exceeded it."

From my perspective, the main advantage the ODG's have, is that over time the forgettable architects and forgettable courses simply fade away and we're left thinking that all the architects back then must have been brilliant geniuses.  The NLG haven't had "fade away" time.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the biggest advantage that NLG's have over the ODG's
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2010, 02:44:14 PM »
I think there is no questions that NLG's have it easy from faster travel to better equipment to more turf knowledge and choices.

My question is, is that still enough to overcome the fact that ODG's had MUCH better land to work with?

??? Bandon is bad land. Barnbougle is bad land. Cabot Links is bad land. ??? I think you need to modify your opinion on the land. I think that NLG much more readily take jobs on bad land because of the modern equipment and because of weather (e.g. Florida). Also, the plethora of housing development courses had bad land going to the golf course. There is and always will be good land. Land doesn't become bad with age!

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the biggest advantage that NLG's have over the ODG's
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2010, 02:48:52 PM »
Sure, there are good land if you look hard enough and willing to go far away from major metropolitan areas, but ODG's had much better choices when they were building things and they are much closer to where majority of people live.

Anthony Gray

Re: What is the biggest advantage that NLG's have over the ODG's
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2010, 09:30:57 PM »


  I think the new guys are at a disadvantage because the old guys are considered "Gods". Are the courses of the new guys not equal or better than the old guys?...On a side note I have an associate at my office now just out of school.For the first week I kept asking myself "How does he know so much?".I didn't know that much when I was just out of school.Then it dawned on me.......I was in school 25 years ago...they weren't teaching that stuff then.......So I think the old guys get a pass at times when it comes to GCA.After all didn't CBM use templates from other courses?

  Anthony


Carl Rogers

Re: What is the biggest advantage that NLG's have over the ODG's
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2010, 09:31:48 PM »
D7's
That might be construed by some to be double edged.  Speed has its drawbacks.

I wonder how this thread might develop.

As a building Architect in my fifties, I have busted my butt to get comfortable on a computer, but I cannot say it has lead to a better end result.

Peter Pallotta

Re: What is the biggest advantage that NLG's have over the ODG's
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2010, 09:38:17 PM »
Mike - I'd guess that the NLGs are designing courses for a much broader range of golfers and golfing abilities that did the ODGs, which if not exactly an 'advantage' may keep your best courses more 'relevant' -- for lack of a better word - both in the present and well into the future.  Also, I think the NLGs have more groupies (though less sophisticated and blue-blooded ones than in the past), so you can get a lot more low-rent fawning if you want it...

Peter  

Mike Cirba

Re: What is the biggest advantage that NLG's have over the ODG's
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2010, 09:40:35 PM »
Oxygen.

Anthony Gray

Re: What is the biggest advantage that NLG's have over the ODG's
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2010, 09:41:42 PM »

  I think the ODG did more private course which makes them more sought after because of access more tham architecture.

  Anthony


Peter Pallotta

Re: What is the biggest advantage that NLG's have over the ODG's
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2010, 09:50:14 PM »
You guys are better looking, as a group and on average. Probably taller too, which helps as you stand on the high ground to survey a site. Also, you have better postures, and wear more sensible footwear.

Peter   

Mike_Young

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Re: What is the biggest advantage that NLG's have over the ODG's
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2010, 09:57:10 PM »
I still say travel is the greatest advantage but after listening to responses I think it could be said that what so many like about the ODG's...and don't get me wrong....I like the work...I just don't go for all the BS attached to it....
But I think it could be said that when they were building they were building golf courses for golf.  For the last twenty years most of the courses we all heard about or saw advertised in the national mags were built in order to sell lots or hotel rooms or casino nites.....so they were way over the top...trying to outdo the one done six months before down the road....instead of being hired by a golf club or an individual many were hired by a marketing manager who wanted the hype of a particular name and could have cared less as to whether it was a practical design or not....and the industry ate this stuff up....I mean when a guy has a 600 lot development of $500,000 lots then a 40 million dollar golf project is nothing...until...there are no lots to sell....
So we end up with a bunch of impractical ..non-self sufficient golf courses....and wonder why....
The amount of money spent trying to buy exclusivity in golf over the last 25 years was enormous and yet it could not overcome the exclusivity EARNED by 80 years existence.

But there are a lot of good new courses out there that never had the marketing and do just fine...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

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