Dogleg holes where fairway slopes in the opposite direction of the dogleg

[TEPaul]

My course, Gulph Mills GC's #10; It sure has had its share of criticism over the years for this.

[Mike_Young]

I like it and have seen it a couple of times on ODG courses where the shot is to the outside of the dogleg....but what I think is critical is the "mitt" of the green has to be much more acceptable from the outside of the dogleg angle than on the high , straight side of the fairway...the green could have a significant side slope from the shorter side of the fairway and a very accepting angle from the outside thus making the longer approach a much easier shot in many instances....AND if there is a creek or something on the downhill outside edge..so much the better...and there is a good bet that nature provided a parallel hazard of a ditch or creek on such holes....

[jonathan_becker]

Phil M,

Below are 2 photos of #18 at Oakland Hills that I took today.  I watched a guy in my group pipe it 300 down the middle and his ball kicked into the left rough.

[Jon Nolan]

I love #12 at Hubbard G.C. (Hill AFB).  

http://tinyurl.com/35aw7gt

The bunker on the inside of the dogleg and the tree line inside the bunker are just about perfect.  The player with a draw can play much of the width of the hole.  The straight player can aim right over the bunker.  The player with a fade is fairly well screwed.  Shorter players can lay up short of the dog leg and with a good second a four is possible.

It's not possible to clear the trees and make the fairway but the branches are cut high at Hill and recovery shots are possible.  A miss over there does turn it into a tough par.

There is just enough run on a well played straight shot that the ball ends up on the right side of the fairway.  If the drive is absolutely uncorked the ball can end up in the right rough.  If the ball ends up under the trees lining the right side of the fairway the shot was not well executed.  

I look forward to playing this hole every time.  It's a great feeling to execute that drive correctly.

[TEPaul]

I'll tell you a very excellent one and a very old one-----Myopia's 18th!!

[David Whitmer]

Another one that works well, in my opinion, is #18 at Muirfield Village.

I like it every now and then. It's different, and it's a chance to try some shotmaking that you normally don't get a chance to try. To me it's like greens that slope from front to back...different and tough, but a few are fun, and they really get you thinking.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I think the issue here revolves around the occurance of this feature on a very limited basis.  Like any architectural feature, if it is used too often on a given course, it will seem monotonous, even ridiculous; your example bears that out.  But diversity and variety in design is crucial (per Macdonald), which makes your universal condemnation of this concept seem overly harsh.  Used judiciously, surely this design element has merit.

Steve,

When the dogleg is fairly sharp and the cant of the fairway pronounced, it can't be good or acceptable architecture.

I understand what you're saying, and I guess, in a moderate form, the concept is tolerable, but, when the features are accentuated, it's terrible architecture since the real test lies in playability, and these types are almost all unplayable.

And when you add difficult to extreme consequences at the base of the cant, where most balls will end up, it's really terrible architecture.

[Matthew Mollica]

I've not walked or played the hole, but does CPC #8 fit this category?

MM

[Doug Siebert]

I think any feature that makes golfers uncomfortable is a good one, and judging by the responses here it sounds like we need more of these.

The only caveat is that the penalty for going through the dogleg should be limited.  So maybe mow an extra wide area of first cut, choose the placement of any bunkering very carefully and make them small so they can be avoided (i.e., by choosing less than a full club off the tee if necessary)  Definitely don't use water or OB on the far side, or the hole, course and architect will be rightly despised

[Phil McDade]

Jonathan Becker:

Thanks for the photos of Oakland hills' 18th -- I distinctly recall Johnny Miller at the Ryder Cup saying some players thought the shot was unfair, for the reason discovered by your playing partner. The bunkering there makes that shot look really quite difficult, and perhaps one could argue the outcome unfair. But the counter-argument would be -- take something less than driver to avoid the kick left into the rough. I'm reluctant to comment much further, as I haven't seen the hole in person, only on TV. But my guess is that Ross/Jones/Jones (whomever gets credit for it) meant it to be a very tough finishing hole on what is a very tough course.

[Jud_T]

I sat in a tent off 18 during the PGA and although I generally am not keen on this type of hole, I'd have to say that it's a very good hole and a great finishing hole.  The key is that neither the slope nor the dogleg is too severe...

[Eric Smith]

But the counter-argument would be -- take something less than driver to avoid the kick left into the rough.

Phil,

Or the bunker.  Wouldn't Tom Lehman have loved to had you on the bag in 1996.

A Heartbreaker for sure, but a great finishing hole.

Nice pics JB!

[Sean_A]

But the counter-argument would be -- take something less than driver to avoid the kick left into the rough.

Phil,

Or the bunker.  Wouldn't Tom Lehman have loved to had you on the bag in 1996.

A Heartbreaker for sure, but a great finishing hole.

Nice pics JB!

I stood directly behind Lehman on the 18th.  He did have a quick chat with his caddie about a layup, but thought the bunker was likely just out of reach.  Lehman wasn't keen on the length of the approach shot required after a safe layup either - it was already about a 6 iron after a good drive.  Also, I don't think Lehman realized his lovely draw driver was in the bunker until leaving the tee.

Ciao

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

I always thought this a strength of Olympic (Lake), and when one really looks at how many of these holes there are, I truly only count 2 (maybe 3) of the 14 non par-3's.

#1 4th -- Dogleg Left; fairway slopes l-to-r. Also hole plays uphill
#2 5th -- Dogleg Right; fw runs r-to-l. Basically plays downhill (altho approach is all carry if not a little bit uphill).
#3 9th (maybe). Basically sets up straight, maybe a slight dogleg right w/ fw sloping r-to-l.  But it just seems more of a straight hole.

Others might try and put in this category are:

#2 while fairway tils r-to-l, it's not a dogleg.
#10 dogleg right, and fw actually tilts with the dogleg
#14 dogleg left, and fw tilts l-to-r.
#16 long par-5 that bends r-to-l for both shots, but the fairway does not tilt away at all.

Just my opinion that there is lot variety of teeshots to had be had and played on the Lake.

WW

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

Correction. #14 is dogleg left w/ fw running r-to-l (not the opposite as I wrote originall).

[archie_struthers]

  8)s

Philly CC number ten is canted like this, and its a difficult tee shot , particularly as they move the tee back. In this case its a slight dogleg left with fescue and a huge tree left and a bunker and a water hazard right .  You really have to shape the tee shot right to left to get the proper position off the tee. 

Flynn did this at Lehigh also , with less success IMHO

 

[Jim Nugent]

I always thought this a strength of Olympic (Lake), and when one really looks at how many of these holes there are, I truly only count 2 (maybe 3) of the 14 non par-3's.

#1 4th -- Dogleg Left; fairway slopes l-to-r. Also hole plays uphill
#2 5th -- Dogleg Right; fw runs r-to-l. Basically plays downhill (altho approach is all carry if not a little bit uphill).
#3 9th (maybe). Basically sets up straight, maybe a slight dogleg right w/ fw sloping r-to-l.  But it just seems more of a straight hole.

Wayne, watching from the gallery 17 years ago, my impression was that the fairway on number 5 had only a little tilt to it; and the fact that the drives were dropping from such an elevated tee kept the roll pretty short.  Is that right?

#9 fairway also looked pretty flat, left to right, and pretty straight. 

#4 is the only one that stands out. 

#17 looked like one of the hardest fairways to hit.  Not a dogleg, but the fairway tilts hard left to right.  With a new tee even further left, that is going to be a bear in the next Open, especially in F&F conditions. 

 

[Bill Shotzbarger]

Flynn examples:

#18 at Rolling Green GC
#16 at Huntingdon Valley CC
As someone stated earlier, #10 at Philly Country, also #14, but these are slight doglegs
Mannies #7, #15, - both par 5s

I've also played Green Valley twice but can't remember any there.

Are there any reverse doglegs at Shinnecock? Cherry Hills?