News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Interpreting Ross
« on: August 14, 2010, 10:52:47 PM »
I'm not sure where I am going with this thread.  So I will just toss out what I've been thinking about and see where the discussion leads.

I have seen a lot of Ross designs lately, including multiple courses each restored by some of the more active and respected Ross restorationists (Hanse, Prichard and Spence).  Uniformly, I think these guys have all done a fantastic job of bringing the luster back to Ross's work.  Very high quality stuff across the board, in my opinion.  But I have started to notice something.  While I believe each of these guys is true to Ross's intent, they also seems to have each developed a style of their own that is subtly different.  I am no good at describing things like this, so I won't even try.  Its the old "I know it when I see it" thing.  But to my eye there is a commonality of appearance between Charlotte, Aronimink and Mountain Ridge (all Prichard).  Similarly, there is a kindred spirit at Carolina, Sedgefield, Cape Fear and Mimosa Hills (Spence).  Same thing for Plainfield and Monroe (Hanse).  If you played any of these courses, you would almost certainly recognize it as a Ross.  Yet each restorationist seems to interpret Ross a bit differently.  I don't think any one of them is more right than another.  Just the nuances of human interpretation.  Kind of like asking 3 musicians to play the same piece.  None would sound exactly the same even though they all might be consistent with the composer's intent.

Thoughts?

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interpreting Ross
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2010, 11:00:50 PM »
Ed,

I haven't seen enough Ross to add anything of significance, however, I have an idea for a 4th category of comparison.  That would be the original Ross courses that have NOT been restored/renovated/etc. (i.e. Holston Hills, Seminole, etc.).  How do they differ from the other 3 styles? 
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interpreting Ross
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2010, 11:26:09 PM »
JC, those courses have undoubtedly evolved over time even if they haven't been "restored".  I assume that evolution would be peculiar to the individual club based on their specific situation.  So I bet there is not a consistent "style" for that catagory.

PS - Brian Silva lists Seminole as a restoration/renovation on his website.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Interpreting Ross
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2010, 12:30:08 AM »
And we've worked on Holston Hills, although we tried not to do too much.  Are there any Ross courses left that HAVE NOT been restored?  There must be one somewhere.

Ed, I have not seen any of the courses you cited post-restoration, but I have always felt that what you cite is the hazard of restoration, that the course may become too much like the stereotype of Ross and not enough like what he actually built in the first place.  There is a tendency for someone after multiple restorations of the same architect's work to think that he's "got it down" and just to repeat what has been done the times before.

I know that many clubs think they need a "Tillinghast expert" or a "Ross expert" or a "MacKenzie expert" to restore the work of their famous dead architect, but personally I think that is very much overrated for just the reason you have cited.  Anybody can read their books and quote them on design.  What you want is someone who will look very closely at the pictures of the old course and try to restore it to the photos as best he can.

Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interpreting Ross
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2010, 12:49:25 AM »
Tom, that would certainly seem to be the danger.  But, in my view, all of the courses I mentioned were extremely well done.  I played a number of them both pre and post restoration.  There is no question in my mind that the restored courses are huge improvements.  And from what I know about these projects, these guys do look at old photos and drawings and do research in an effort to recreate Ross's intent.  But even with all that, their styles are slightly different.  At the end of the day, it is impossible for the human element not to intercede.

David Royer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interpreting Ross
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2010, 04:17:38 AM »
At the risk of being a bit artsy/fartsy.  Isn't the emerging pattern of the restorations a bit like artists in a particular period. In my view what made the Impressionist period so special was each artist brought his take to canvas. If great golf architecture is art, (my belief) wouldn't this seem as a natural extentsion of the artistic process.  I'm not an artist, just a lover of art.

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interpreting Ross
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2010, 09:11:47 AM »
I'm going to be playing Rackham (Detroit Park District) in two weeks. I'll bring my camera and post some photos. Does anyone know if that Ross course is as pure as many say it is? I have heard that the opening hole was changed to widen the highway, but that otherwise it is untouched. Can anyone vouch for that?


mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interpreting Ross
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2010, 09:18:49 AM »
Ed,

Ive played at least 15  Ross courses  "before and  after".  Some of the variation stems from which shaper/shapers are involved in the final product. Also how this shaper is instructed or supervised by architect. At times this "small difference" in execution shows up in bunker detailng.  For instance, one restored Ross course I played in the upper Midwest ended up having identical  shaping to a Ross gem in western Massachusetts,even though vintage aerial photographs (1930s) showed marked differences in bunker style at the respective courses

Ross did not have an homogenous bunker " look "
« Last Edit: August 15, 2010, 09:34:15 AM by mark chalfant »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Interpreting Ross
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2010, 09:58:47 AM »
I'm going to be playing Rackham (Detroit Park District) in two weeks. I'll bring my camera and post some photos. Does anyone know if that Ross course is as pure as many say it is? I have heard that the opening hole was changed to widen the highway, but that otherwise it is untouched. Can anyone vouch for that?



Bradley:

My associate Bruce Hepner did a little work at Rackham for American Golf years ago, because he grew up nearby and wanted to help them.  He certainly didn't do any major work, though, because they didn't have any money.  So there should be a lot of original (if slightly run down) feature work.

I have never played the course but I think from what Bruce said, 3-5 holes were affected by the highway change.  Sorry I don't know the details.

mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interpreting Ross
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2010, 10:14:33 AM »
Bradley,

Ive  played  Rogell, Rackham and Rouge all  several times. The design interest at Rogell and at Rouge Park has always far exceeded same at Rackham

Rouge=  Dramatic elevation changes, variety ,challenge, great routing

Rogell=    Ravines, doglegs, punchbowls, drop shots    6,100 y.


Chicago analogy,

Rogell   :   Shoreacres   / Old Elm

Rouge  :   OFCC South

Rackham:    Knollwood or North Shore


 
« Last Edit: August 15, 2010, 10:19:28 AM by mark chalfant »

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interpreting Ross
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2010, 10:48:49 AM »
  Are there any Ross courses left that HAVE NOT been restored?  There must be one somewhere.

Tom, the answer is Memphis Country Club.  They take great pride in claiming that their course remains original, but the 8th green has been totally re-built.  The 9th and 18th were too close for comfort and either one or both of them has been moved as well.  Also, when they converted to Champion bermuda the rear of the third green had to be lowered. 

Far more importantly  a set of photographs taken approximately 50 yards out from each green circa 1940 were discovered after the conversion of the greens, which remain generally rounded.  I'm having trouble finding my disk with the photographs, but they are amazing, reflecting a myriad of shapes, many with very hard edges - as cool a group as you'll see. 

Coupled with a brilliant routing on approximately 110 acres - loops within loops, a true restoration of the greens would be to die for.


Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interpreting Ross
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2010, 02:30:40 PM »
  Are there any Ross courses left that HAVE NOT been restored?  There must be one somewhere.

Tom, the answer is Memphis Country Club.  They take great pride in claiming that their course remains original, but the 8th green has been totally re-built.  The 9th and 18th were too close for comfort and either one or both of them has been moved as well.  Also, when they converted to Champion bermuda the rear of the third green had to be lowered. 

Far more importantly  a set of photographs taken approximately 50 yards out from each green circa 1940 were discovered after the conversion of the greens, which remain generally rounded.  I'm having trouble finding my disk with the photographs, but they are amazing, reflecting a myriad of shapes, many with very hard edges - as cool a group as you'll see. 

Coupled with a brilliant routing on approximately 110 acres - loops within loops, a true restoration of the greens would be to die for.


Mike

Northland in Duluth has altered only one green in the 50+ years I've played the course, and the changes to that green -- #13 -- are so subtle as to be inconsequential. There have been a few new bunkers added and a couple of bunkers reshaped, but it might even take Donald Ross a while to notice them. I'd say the original course is about 95 percent intact.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Adam Sherer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interpreting Ross
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2010, 07:01:37 PM »
Sakonnet is original for the most part.  Silva redesigned the 12th and 16th green.....Hanse designed the new 9th and 10th "ocean" holes, but the bunkering throughout the rest of the course (I believe) has not been touched.




How many courses did Ross design?  300? 400?  With that many courses to his credit, it would be a fair statement that there are several different "styles" to his courses.  Consequently, the three aforementioned architects that are restoring Ross courses certainly have been influenced by Ross courses that they feel are indicative of a Ross "style" and thus influence their own "Rossian" ideals.


Ed.....to continue the musical reference - if Donald Ross is the Miles Davis of golf design, then maybe Pritchard represents Miles' be-bop phase, Spence represents his cool era, and Hanse the fusion?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2010, 07:43:08 PM by Adam Sherer »
"Spem successus alit"
 (success nourishes hope)
 
         - Ross clan motto

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interpreting Ross
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2010, 08:02:12 PM »
Old photos may be a great help but "original drawings" are dangerous.  Who can say that the original drawing is what the ODG ever wanted on the ground.  AND you see them interpreted in so many convenient ways.... ;)
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interpreting Ross
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2010, 08:32:23 PM »
Old photos may be a great help but "original drawings" are dangerous.  Who can say that the original drawing is what the ODG ever wanted on the ground.  AND you see them interpreted in so many convenient ways.... ;)

Mike, I think this is an excellent point.  It seems to me many of the ODG's romanticized their designs with beautiful, artistic drawings, many of which never found their way into the dirt.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interpreting Ross
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2010, 09:06:13 PM »
Bradley,

Ive  played  Rogell, Rackham and Rouge all  several times. The design interest at Rogell and at Rouge Park has always far exceeded same at Rackham

Rouge=  Dramatic elevation changes, variety ,challenge, great routing

Rogell=    Ravines, doglegs, punchbowls, drop shots    6,100 y.


Chicago analogy,

Rogell   :   Shoreacres   / Old Elm

Rouge  :   OFCC South

Rackham:    Knollwood or North Shore


 

Mark,

How did you know I would relate to a Chicago analogy? I know all those courses.  :D

Do you know who designed the Rouge and Rogell?

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interpreting Ross
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2010, 09:10:01 PM »
I'm going to be playing Rackham (Detroit Park District) in two weeks. I'll bring my camera and post some photos. Does anyone know if that Ross course is as pure as many say it is? I have heard that the opening hole was changed to widen the highway, but that otherwise it is untouched. Can anyone vouch for that?



Bradley:

My associate Bruce Hepner did a little work at Rackham for American Golf years ago, because he grew up nearby and wanted to help them.  He certainly didn't do any major work, though, because they didn't have any money.  So there should be a lot of original (if slightly run down) feature work.

I have never played the course but I think from what Bruce said, 3-5 holes were affected by the highway change.  Sorry I don't know the details.

I was just looking for a course to set up a superintendents outing with all the Detroit private club guys and I called this club. I found out later that it's an old Ross course and I hear people say things like its the best kept secret in Detroit, and its untouched etc. I haven't been this excited about playing a new course in a long time.

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interpreting Ross
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2010, 09:21:59 PM »
Ross did not have an homogenous bunker " look "

I would say that he developed several bunker types, but the look of his bunkers types were pretty distinctive.

Without naming any names or specific architects I wonder if some restoration architects aren't making the grass faces a little steeper than Ross did. Certainly Ross built some steep grass faces, but he also built some gentle grass slopes too. They were not all steep.

I worked at Old Elm as an assistant in the 80's. The advantage of studying those bunkers before they redid them recently was they had seen so little play in them - 4,000 rounds a year. There really wasn't that much sand buildup on them to where the original grades were altered. There were several greens slopes that we striped to resod and the sand layer wasn't more than an inch deep on most of those embankments. I think that experience gave me a good sense of what his bunkers may have originally looked like. Well maybe - admittedly Colt was also involved in that project, but I still think those features are 100% Ross, and that Colt was mainly involved in the routing.


Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interpreting Ross
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2010, 11:46:11 PM »
Ed,

I think this is an EXCELLENT topic and it leads to a quetion that came to mind when I played Aronimink amd Mountain Ridge.

If Ross is known for protecing greensites with faiwary height mounds and collection areas, and an architect lke Ron Prichard removes heavy rough and creates several of these collection areas, where does he stop?  Many of the great Ross courses in the northeast now have thick bluegrass rough surrounding the greens. Should ALL the rough go and should we return to a pre-irrigation system playing condition?

mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interpreting Ross
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2010, 07:48:06 AM »
Bradley,


Rogell  is some Ross and some Bendelow.  Ravines/ gullies are used very well  in the rouitng

Rouge Park   is rather sophisticated, but I don't know who designed it.  Were Reid and Ross active in Detrroit  in the 1920s  ?  
« Last Edit: August 16, 2010, 07:51:33 AM by mark chalfant »

David_Madison

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interpreting Ross
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2010, 08:11:46 AM »
Ed,

I agree with your thoughts, at least as pertains to Kris Spence. I like his work a lot, and he has done a wonderful job of restoring a number of courses in North Carolina. Yet, I can't help but see a certain sameness from course to course. Lots of big square greens, with elevated ridges coming in from either side creating four pockets or quadrants (including one on either side in the back protected by the downslope off the ridge). I noticed a lot of that green style at Sedgefield, Carolina, and Myers Park. Also some similar bunkering schemes from course to course. And then when you see Charlotte CC, it's a totally different experience. There's a lot more movement and variety on and around the greens, and a feeling of distinct lobes creating very small functional targets. Yet all of the courses mentioned clearly look and feel like Ross designs. Interesting topic.   

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interpreting Ross
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2010, 05:43:22 PM »
Ed,

I would be happy to discuss some of my thoughts with you.  You know how to reach me. 

More importantly,  how many courses do you need to do to become a Ross (or any other) expert?  Tom D is on to something with his response. 

Lester

Kris Spence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interpreting Ross
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2010, 10:22:24 PM »
A few of the courses I have been given the responsibility of working on are mentioned in this thread so I think I should give a bit of insight into the process of restoration or renovation I took whatever you want to call it.  Personally, very few projects are pure restorations, however, most of my projects contain a great deal of restorative work along with what most view as renovation.

The first step to all of my projects is the development of a Long Range plan, I haven't undertaken any significant projects without one.  I perform an extensive search for documents including Ross plans, drawings, aerial photographs, ground level photos, underlying topo's from previous redesign projects, club notes and minutes.  I  interview  older members who may have been around in the early days of the course and who may be aware of certain changes, I walk the course looking for remnants of green fill pads, bunker forms, old tees, I look at tree lines to determine old growth versus new growth etc.  I dig around in bunker bottoms and faces to verify sand buildup, original depths etc., I  take soil core profiles through the green and into sub-grades to determine original construction methods if they remain, I probe around the outer edges of fill pads and bunker forms to try and determine original dimensions, depths and character of these features. 

I analyze  old photos and aerials for comparison to the current course and the architects drawings in an effort to identify any discrepancies between aerials and the original drawings.  In my opinion, old aerials are the most valuable piece of evidence aside from great ground level photos soon after the course was completed.  I agree with Mike Y, old drawings can be very dangerous if you make the assumption that the original architect or construction team followed them exactly.  From this process, I'm left with the job of trying to explain first and foremost what was originally designed and constructed, by whom and when.  If and when this is established, I begin the design process of determining what gets restored, renovated, shifted, relocated, eliminated, re-instated, adjusted and so on.  I establish my preliminary goals first without input from the membership then I share them with the club and begin open discussions between myself and the focus groups of the club.  Lets compare Sedgefield and Mimosa

Sedgefield CC was designed by Ross in 1924, opened in 1926 as part of a planned 36 hole golf, equestrian and hunting lodge in the country  between Greensboro and High Point NC. The Blue course remains today and three holes of the Red course were built in 29 but abandoned due to the depression.  At some point residential took over the hunting grounds between the holes and there is evidence this took place mid design and construction of the blue course.  More on that later.  The golf course was renovated by Ed Connors around 1988 including rebuilding the greens as they were being mown and the greenside bunkering as it existed.  Fast forward to 2006 I was hired to develop a Restorative Long Range Plan.  Here is what I found to back up the recommendation of the plan.

Aerial Photos of the course dating to 1938, we had several very clear aerials from multiple angles of the entire course and individual holes
Copies of Ross Hole by Hole drawings with notes
A 36 hole routing plan by Ross
Ground Level photos dating to the 30's of some bunkers and greens
Old fill pad forms still present
Old bunker forms evident in some locations not in others shown by the aerial
I spoke with a gentleman who carried the stakes for Mr. Ross at age 7 when he staked the course years earlier
Even with all of this information, there were significant discrepancies in bunkering between the Ross drawings and the aerials.  During a meeting, I was handed an old cardboard folder holding a complete set of 18 x 24" white line blueprint drawings of each hole, when I took them outside the sunlight revealed red, yellow and lead pencil markings and notes on the plan that clarified every discrepancy between the aerial and the plans in Mr. Ross handwriting.  The plans were the set he carried around the course on his visit to the project.  On these drawings, Mr. Ross added bunkers, removed others, adjusted and or changed the design of the greens etc, it was these drawings we used to measure the fill pads that remained, they were exactly to the scale of the drawings. 

These plans and the aerial photo's that matched the notes was the guiding force behind the plan and the restoration of the course. 

The greens were restored to their original size, shape and orientation based on the information, a select few greens were softened in the back half only to the point of reclaiming the use of these areas but we maintained enough steepness to preserve the original design and playing characteristics of the greens.  I relocated the 18th green back 31 yards and redesigned the short par 5 greens on holes 5 and 15 to provide a better challenge on and around the greens for the third shots. 

 Greenside bunkers were restored to their original positions, shapes, sizes and depths based on the aerials/drawings, I removed around 15 greenside bunkers and restored the articulating corners that originally existed, I left a few greenside bunkers where  appropriate for the modern game and I shifted the fairway bunkers to modern distances etc where I thought the landforms allowed.  Ross notes and drawings were used to determine depth of bunkers.

Sedgefield has 15 original greens as built by Donald Ross, 2 completely redesigned greens in original locations and 1 new green in a new location.

Mimosa Hills, Morganton NC

All 18 Greens are on the original fill pads and were cored to their original size, dimension etc.

The green contours were sharpened and defined to match the drawings and what was in existence or evidenced by the photos.

All Greenside bunkers were restored by removing sand buildup to delineate the original clay construction beneath them on the sides and in the bottoms.  It was a very simple process.  The greenside bunkers are original and reflect the bunkers that Ross construction team built.  This is verified by many old aerial and ground level photos of the course from the 30's, as well as, Ross's routing plan and hole by hole drawings/notes.  The fairway bunkers were restored in the same fashion as the greenside bunkers, I added one bunker to the string of pearls on the left side of the 5th hole and flip flopped a bunker on the 1st hole, brought back an old bunker on the 10th, other than that it was a straight dig out, clean off the build up and restore the faces.  The course had several different style of bunkers including sunken pits with raised irregular surrounds, pot bunkers cut into the faces of up slopes / hills, sand pockets in the tops of mounds. I think there were 13 or 18 bunkers that were previously removed that the club would not allow me to reinstate.  Mostly it was financial but some of it came from Billy Joe Patton objecting to a small degree.

At Mimosa I had Ross field drawings and notes with his revisions drawn on the plans
I had the original routing plan drawn by Walter Irving Johnson
Great aerial photos
ground level photos
original fill pads intact
most of the original bunker forms intact
Restoring Mimosa was a very straightforward project that was guided by the original course buried beneath 75 years of sand buildup.

David Madison, your comment that Sedgefield, Carolina and Myers have a sameness surprises me, they couldn't more different in my opinion.  Sedgefield has one of the most unique set of Ross greens I have ever seen, vastly different than the other two courses.  Bunker faces similar maybe, but routing, bunkering and green designs  determined by the unique  ground they sit on.

I hope this gives you some perspective into the process I go through, until next time.

David_Madison

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interpreting Ross
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2010, 10:50:00 PM »
Kris,

The courses all had a different feel on a macro basis. But, I remember seeing a lot of what seemed to be the same type of green at each of the courses -- squared in front, horizontal ridges coming in from either side about halfway back, with back corner pins protected by the backsides of those slopes off the ridges. Please don't get me wrong here, as I liked the concept of the green. It's just that I hadn't seen it anywhere else yet I seemed to remember it as a recurring theme at Sedgefield, Myers Park, and Carolina. I don't remember if Cape Fear had any such greens. I meant to ask you about the squared off greens the next time I saw you. The other type of green I remember seeing more than once, usually on par-3's, is a more rounded surface with an upper tier that circles a front center lower tier. if I remember correctly, didn't both of the par-3's on the back nine share this general theme? I've only played each of these courses once, and that was a 2 or 3 years ago, so please excuse me if my memory isn't spot on.

Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interpreting Ross
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2010, 11:09:02 PM »
I hope this thread does not go in the unintended direction of suggesting that any of the architects I mentioned are right or wrong or are doing things better or worse than anyone else.  That was definitely not my intent.  As I said initially, the results I have seen have been uniformly very good from all of them.  My point (if I even had one) was that is seems almost inevitable that human traits will seep through in their work.  How could we expect anything else?  I believe Brad Klein has said that he can often tell who was Ross's construction foreman by looking at what was built on the ground.  Aren't we really just seeing the second coming of that same phenomenon?

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back