Whistling Straits, Kiawah, imagination and attention to detail

[JC Jones]

While I've not played either, what strikes me as different about these two courses and other courses I have played that are completely manufactured is the non-golf-hole imagination and creativity.  One of my many knocks on Arcadia Bluffs is the crappy chop mounding all around the course and how poorly it ties in with everything else.

Watching WS in HD this afternoon, I am very impressed with the imagination of all the surrounding features and the level of detail applied throughout the course.  I may not get down with the actual architecture or golfing merit of the holes, but I have to say that when it comes to attention to detail, these courses seem to be up there with some of the best in the modern era.

[Tom_Doak]

A.W.:  Mr. Dye has always managed to find pretty talented young guys to do the labor work on his courses.    Our crew at Long Cove was about as good as you could get, and that's where I got the idea to do the same on my own courses.

[Sven Nilsen]

I seem to remember that the team at WS spent a ton of time individually planting the non-native grasses surrounding the fairways.  All to create a look in line with the ultimate goal of recreating Ballybunion on the shores of Lake Michigan. 

[JC Jones]

I seem to remember that the team at WS spent a ton of time individually planting the non-native grasses surrounding the fairways.  All to create a look in line with the ultimate goal of recreating Ballybunion on the shores of Lake Michigan. 

Another interesting point on tonight's telecast, the lead asked Feherty if Rory was more comfortable playing at WS because it was "Ballybunion-esque" and Feherty responded that although some of the vistas may be Ballybunion-esque, the golf course was anything but and it played very much like an "American" golf course.

[Carl Rogers]

A.W.:  Mr. Dye has always managed to find pretty talented young guys to do the labor work on his courses.    Our crew at Long Cove was about as good as you could get, and that's where I got the idea to do the same on my own courses.

Tom & any of the rest of you that know more than I,
It seems to me that the amount personnel time & effort and equipment needed to create WS would be the equivalent of 5, more or less typical courses.??
That is what strikes me about the course.

[Rob Rigg]

Feherty also said BB was the best 12 hole course in the world which was interesting.

Sean Martin interviewed Ryan Moore yesterday as they walked the 11th hole at Whistling and Ryan said the same thing as Feherty - Irish look but plays like an "American" course.

I can't help but think that for the amount of $ they put into the place and what it costs to maintain they would not have built a course that plays more true to "links" golf if that is what Mr Kohler was looking for - and I believe that is what he requested from Mr Dye?

My issue with the "appearance" vs "reality" is that the course is SO contrived as to look like a links but not play like one - Is that not bizarre?

It's like within all the attention to detail (or excessive attn to detail) they forgot to replicate the playing characteristics of the "Ballybunion" request?

With Shadow Creek you know what you are getting - but with WS it looks like you are sold a bill of goods that is missing a vital element?

Kiawah looks like a fantastic original.

[Kevin Lynch]

With Shadow Creek you know what you are getting - but with WS it looks like you are sold a bill of goods that is missing a vital element?

Like I've asked before, why is it that you can't have an "American" style of play that simply looks different?  Whoever claimed it is "supposed" to play like a links?  Are people so upset by the fact that it was once an Air Base (and not "born" this way) that it makes them feel like the course is devoid of Architectural merit?  Sure, I love a great "minimalist" hole, but I don't think that style can claim exclusive domain over "great" or "memorable" architecture.

Dye used elevation and strategic mounds to take away the "comfort zone" of seeing all of your landing area.  When you can get touring pros to feel uncomfortable with visual intimidation, there is some evidence of merit (which can't be easily dismissed as goofy OTT gimmicks).

The 12th is a great little Par 3 with a superbly designed green.  When you can challenge touring pros with wedges and 9 irons in their hands, that deserves some respect.

All over the course, there is the strategic use of angled landing areas, the use of rolling fairways to provide different ways of attacking the hole, risk/reward trade-offs (think VJ on #10 in 2004 playoff), and diabolically tricky greens which accentuate the short game.   Do these things not reflect architectural merit?  Some of the dismissals here (and on similar threads) seem to smack of "it's artificial, so it's bad," despite evidence to the contrary.

And why are some people so dismissive with some of their comments to the effect of "if it weren't for the water views...."?  Aesthetics are a huge part of the golfing experience.  While I recognize that it's a function of individual taste, Whistling Straits is visually stunning to me, and it's not just the water views.  The flowing of the fairways and detail mentioned by JC (I mean A.W.) all add to the experience. 

I'll stop now because I'm rambling a bit and I need to get to bed for my 2+ hour drive tomorrow AM. 

[Anthony Gray]

  Its offensive to call the suroundings eye candy.All the features around the course add to the entire golf experience and are positive to the the enjoyment of the round.

  Anthony

[Mark_Fine]

A.W.,
Best is a strong word but if I had to, I would vote for Pete Dye as the best with attention to detail.  It's every hole on almost every course he's done.  Can't really say that about any other architect, past or present.  That does not mean I love every golf course Pete's designed, I don't.  But when he does something, like it or not, he gives it his all and pays attention to every detail. 
Mark

[Rob Rigg]

Kevin,

They have Irish flags fluttering in the wind in front of the clubhouse and they say the course was built as a tribute to Ballybunion (or something) - If that is the marketing then I would expect it to play like a links course. If that is not what they are marketing then fine - it should be clear that you will have a links style "setting" but "American" playing conditions.

Obviously anyone watching the PGA can see it does not play like a links.

I am enjoying the lack of trees and lovely vistas although the number of bunkers is kind of overwhelming - even on TV.

There are a bunch of incredible bunkers - maybe extreme but that is Pete's style - I feel like the number of out of play and irrelevant bunkers make the real gems seem less interesting. From the tee there is a ton of confusion which can be a good thing - it reminds me a bit of Tetherow (which is a love it or hate it course in Bend).

I have to say that the par 3s do look very strong - likely overwhelming for an amateur playing the wrong tees but if it hadn't rained so much the past month and was playing faster they would really be giving the pros fits.

[David Egan]

It's not perfect but, under normal conditions, it plays a lot more like what you'd expect from a links course.  But, this summer and this week has been far from normal which has resulted in a much softer and greener WS than I've ever seen.  It's too bad we have to wait 10 years but I think the conditions in late September for the Ryder Cup will be very F&F and what you expected to see this week.

[Matt Kardash]

What don't yuo people understand? i'd doesnt play anything like a links this week because they have had a monsoon-like summer and have been inondated with rain. Add to that it rained before and during the tournament. Not even ballybunion would be playing like a links if it had this much rain.
In 2004 during the final round the wind was up and the course had finally dried out (because earlier in the week it rained and softened the place) and the ball was bouncing everywhere. Look at the clip of Vijay's drive on the 10th hole in the playoff. The ball probably rolled 50 yards uphill!

[Tom_Doak]

A.W.:  Mr. Dye has always managed to find pretty talented young guys to do the labor work on his courses.    Our crew at Long Cove was about as good as you could get, and that's where I got the idea to do the same on my own courses.

Tom & any of the rest of you that know more than I,
It seems to me that the amount personnel time & effort and equipment needed to create WS would be the equivalent of 5, more or less typical courses.??
That is what strikes me about the course.

Carl:

I think they had a crew about twice the normal size, and it took them twice as long as normal to build it.

The only time I was there was a few months before the official opening.  All of the holes were in place, and playable, but all of the sandy areas out in the rough were yet to be.  I think they took another full year on that.