[Patrick_Mucci]

The Volcano hole is another.

Jim,

I equate the Volcano and the Knoll hole, they're quite similar.
# 13 at Piping is a Volcano/Knoll hole.

Pete Dye/Greg Norman tried to create one at the 3rd hole at The Medalist.

That hole has gone through more alterations than Joan Rivers.
I prefered the original, but, the current hole, which bears little resemblance to the original isn't so bad.

[Jim_Kennedy]

VKM,
Holes where the green is perched way above the fairway, mainly a par 3, but also used on 4s and 5s. The green can be stand-alone or nestled in a hillside.  
Examples are many and can be found on quite a few old threads. Bob Labbance once wrote an article on them for NE magazine.
Here's one:



Pat,
Probably very similar, but perhaps a 'volcano' could be seen as more pronounced than a 'knoll', like the one at the Equinox in Manchester, VT.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,
what's the volcano one, JK?

See my response to JK

Good call on the skyline...that's a wonderful reappearing conceptual feature, Tillinghast did it very, very well on Fenway's second.
Yes, agreed, great look.
Fenway, like Westhampton, suffers from being in the shadow of two other great courses.
Yard for yard I think Fenway is harder than either Winged Foot and Quaker Ridge.

My favorite (because it's best known to me) Ross course has been Siwanoy and Ross employs no less than 7 skyline approaches in what I think is the most masterful use of property routing I have ever seen.  The club's bold, but judicious, removal of 90% of their trees - which gets the property back to the Ross era in which it was sited - has restored five of these skyline shots

Ross is probably the most prolific user of the skyline green.
Something about it must have captured his imagination.
I know it's captured mine.
I love a skyline green, not just for its look, but for how its topography inherently exposes it to the WIND.

I think CBM/Raynor created a few skyline greens at Fishers Island.
Certainly the Knoll hole (# 10 ?) is one of them, as is # 3 and # 6

What is that difference between a hole with the double plateau green (named "Plateau" at NGLA (#11)) and the features of hole called "Double Plateau" at other venues of the CBM-Raynor-Banks family.


I often struggle with hole names in terms of their genesis.
# 11 at NGLA is a double plateau.
However, until I convinced Joe McBride that it was a double plateau, it was a single plateau since the back plateau was left as rough.
The 1928 schematic lists # 11 as "Plateau", but, I wonder, was the back plateau abandoned early on for financial reasons.
Or, did CBM/SR/CB consider "plateaus" and "Double Plateaus" to be in the same family

# 11 at NGLA is unique in that it's green is a reverse L configuration.
What make # 11 so challenging, even for today's player, is that the hole plays down wind and hitting your approach, such that the ball STAYS on the left side plateau when the hole is cut there, remains a really difficult challenge for everyone.

When the hole is cut in the center bowl, it's a relatively easy shot, and, when the hole is cut on the back plateau, the hole gets harder, but, not as hard as when the hole is on the left side plateau.

Typical SINGLE "plateaus" usually have the back of the green elevated, like at CCF.
Although, I theorize that the 15th hole at CCF is actually a "Double Plateau" where the club allowed the left plateau go to rough.
If you examine the perimeter of # 15 you can clearly see an elevated, man made table top, one that connects to the front portion of # 15 green, which would make it a double plateau if that area was mowed at green height.

Recapturing the front left as green would convert a good hole into a great hole.

The 2nd hole at the Knoll has one of the most unusual "Double Plateau" greens in golf in that it's configured on and angle from the fairway approach.
It's one hell of a golf hole.
Unfortunately, it's named, "Plateau" when it should be, "Double Plateau"

# 16 at Essex County East, is another great "Double Plateau" green, and again, one hell of a hole.

The five or six other double plateau holes I've played (Yale 17, Fisher's 9, (18 may qualify too) my unmentionable favorite #1, (perhaps Sleepy Hollow's 9th?) seem to be orientated with great similarity...

"Front Left plateau rising out of the left approach fairway ground, concave depression in the right center, sloping to a second, smaller (but sharper and more defined rear right plateau"

Is there a variation or altogether different hole named for a single "Plateau," a different style of "Double Plateau" hole of which I'm unaware and is there great variation with double plateau green deployment of which I'm unaware.

Charlie Banks deviated from the norm with the 2nd at the Knoll and 16th at ECCCE.
Montclair has variations of the plateau and double plateau greens, unfortunately, some have been eradicated as green speeds have increased.


Also, right now I can't get out my Scotland's Gift - but do we know from exactly where all the NGLA holes were templated (as well as the forms that do not appear on NGLA...Biarritz...etc)

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
I believe the photo in the header is the 6th hole at the CC of Buffalo (Ross). This is probably a premier example of a volcano hole and it looks like it would be a gas to play and a terror if you missed the green. 

www.ccofbuffalo.org

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,
I believe the photo in the header is the 6th hole at the CC of Buffalo (Ross). This is probably a premier example of a volcano hole and it looks like it would be a gas to play and a terror if you missed the green. 

www.ccofbuffalo.org

That certainly is a unique and fun looking hole.

I would imagine, that key to the play of that hole, is the maintainance practice applicable to that hole.
Mowed at fairway height, with F&F conditions, that hole could be difficult from any distance.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
It would be instructive if someone familiar with the hole chimed in. I think it's a par 3.

[DMoriarty]

Brow.

[V. Kmetz]

Patrick M,

Yes, I was thinking Ross and forgot about Fisher's 3rd and 10th as a skyline.  I've never played Westhampton or The Knoll or Essex county.

I didn't know the double plateau had "maintenance issues" that had the plateaus (at different times I assume) covered with rough (like Biarritz fronts that are either kept as green or very firm fairway, right?)

It occurred to me that in many ways...Winged Foot East #17 (Lightnin') is really a "Volcano" hole in the sense I am understanding the term. The marvelous and under-discussed 13th there is also a version of a volcano hole - though it has more hazards than just the topography guarding it.

cheers

vk

[V. Kmetz]

What about the "Maiden" or "Bottle"

Does anyone know the etymology or European source on those?  Appearances in CBM-Raynor-Banks or other classic design?

Though we've plumbed this nicely in these opening posts I still wonder if our learned panel knows or would argue for any of the classic designers trying their own copy of a CBM-Raynor Template hole or invented a time-honored, repeated thing of their own, though it might not come with a well-known name.

Also, while my library is inaccessible to me right now (room-repair) I seem to recall Mackenzie referencing Stoke Poges quite a bit for Augusta National - at least the original 16th, but something else too.

What's kind of neat about Augusta is that the original layout did have "odes" of a sort as well as a number of amazing Mackenzie originals...it was a rather sophisticated blend of old British presentations adapted to American parkland.  That must have been a fun, fun, fun course from 6300 yards in the first years it opened.

As to those referencing the "Florida finishers"...doral, Sawgrass, Bay Hill with a hole making a crescent entirely around water, I wonder (when I think of Mackenzie) if those aren't some kind of bastardization (my word) of Mackenzie's 13th at Augusta National...allegedly the first hole he sited when he made the initial visit to the property.

If that hole is indeed mostly an original (certainly an American original) and other diagonal "water on one whole side and crossing in front" can be extrapolated from it, then it seems to me to require the respect of a post-CBM template hole.

I'm interested to hear more

cheers

vk

[Tom Dunne]

Spion Kop.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Gibraltar:

[Jud_T]

VK- from Ran's Old Mac writeup:

Fourteenth hole, Maiden, 370/230 yards; Macdonald liked naming holes and by doing so he helped well traveled people better understand what they were seeing and playing when golf was still in its early days in the United States. Conversely, Raynor left others to name his holes and the name Maiden was bequeathed to his holes that feature high left and right plateaus with a gulley between them (his Maiden holes have nothing to do with the blind par three Maiden hole that once existed at Royal St. George’s). Such is the case with the fourteenth green at Old Macdonald with an added benefit that the dune behind the left plateau acts as a backstop and helps bold approach shots roll back onto the left plateau.

[Jud_T]

from Ran's NGLA review:

8th hole, 420 yards, Bottle; Fairway bunkers (i.e.bunkers that are surrounded on all sides by fairway) are a crucial componentto any strategic design. Yet, greater than 95% of the courses built since WWII don’t possess a single fairway bunker. Instead, modern architectsplaced the hazards on thesides of the fairways where they addlittle strategic value. Patterned after Willie Parks’ 12th at Sunningdale (Old) whichopened in 1899, this strong two shotter is the only holethatNick Faldobogeyed on his tour of the course in 1986. Anechelon of seven bunkers encroaches into the fairway from the lower left and effectively divides the fairway into a left and right portion in the landing area off the tee. While the right side may be the more direct route, the left side provides a more level stance and a better angle into the green.

[C. Squier]

I'm pretty sure I've read that CB and Seth used 28 template holes.  Can't remember for the life of me where I read it though.

[John Moore II]

Something I have noticed is that, and please correct me if I am wrong, that the template holes from Scotland and such that CBM used don't tend to have water features (oops, sorry, the Cape hole). Does having a water feature make the hole more difficult to replicate elsewhere? I guess a hole like #12 at ANGC or #13 at ANGC with the small creek could be replicated as a template fairly easily, but other possible templates like the Island green or even a Cape hole are more difficult to replicate without some fairly intense construction.

But what are the modern templates? So far, I can think of three, possibly, two par 3's and one par 5 that may or may not be liked by others, but I like it.
The Island hole: 17th at Sawgrass, etc.
The Golden Bell: 12th at Augusta National
The Double Cape: 4th at PGA Ryder, maybe #5 as Whistling Straits, and possibly 4 and 11 at Tobacco Road. Allows the player to 'bite it off' on the tee shot and second shot if he desires, but gives the option to play safe on both shots.

[Niall C]

John

I'm sure there was a thread recently that suggested the (original) Cape Hole was an original on the basis that it was the first to have the water tucked out with water surrounding it. I tend to think it would have had several influences including the first at Machrihanish but I doubt we'll ever know.

Niall

[Jim_Kennedy]

JKM.

Mackenzie wrote this about the 12th at Augusta:
 "This is somewhat similar to the best hole, the seventh, at Stoke Poges, England. It's probably better than the one at Stoke Poges as the green is more visible and the background more attractive."

The island green concept is at least 80 years old and the first time I ever read about a double carry was in the 'Heroic' section of C&W. The example used was by RTJ. Not new.

 

[John Moore II]

JKM.

Mackenzie wrote this about the 12th at Augusta:
 "This is somewhat similar to the best hole, the seventh, at Stoke Poges, England. It's probably better than the one at Stoke Poges as the green is more visible and the background more attractive."

The island green concept is at least 80 years old and the first time I ever read about a double carry was in the 'Heroic' section of C&W. The example used was by RTJ. Not new.

Jim-Thank you for the information. I was unaware that those holes were not at least somewhat original to the modern era. I had read somewhere, I thought, that the island at Golden Horseshoe was one of the first island holes in America, if not the first. I took this to mean that the Island was a modern design.

[Dean DiBerardino]

How about the "Great Hazard" and "Double Dog-Leg" by Tilly?

Also, how about the "Switchback" hole which seems to be a featured hole on most Pete Dye courses?

[DMoriarty]

Jim Kennedy,

Nice photo.   Do you know the year?

[Jim_Kennedy]

DM,
The date quoted was pre-1914. That's all I know.

[RJ_Daley]

I'd submit that the bunker in the middle of the green is a template idea, infrequently copied, but copied none the less as a template.

Along that same line, the boomerang green or Lion's mouth green front bunker with green wrapped around is copied in variations, something of a template.

[Mike Policano]

Island green may not be a Dye hole. Tillinghast built an island green at Shackamaxon in NJ. The ninth hole had a green surrounded by water which was built in the early twenties. There may have been others built back in the day. The ninth at the Shack is a par 4.

Maybe Pat knows of an island par 3 built back then.

[V. Kmetz]

RJ,

Are you attributing that idea to Thomas (at Riviera) or did Thomas graft it from a classic european or early american hole?

Has such a hole ever been referred with a name linking the design literally or figuratively...eg; "the Donut" "the Eye"?

It very well could be, but if it is not along those lines - for me and my purposes starting this thread - then it suggests that the "Bunker in the middle" is an absolute original and its virtues (or vices) are entirely the product of its first known designer.

Also to be an enduring design aesthetic it would have to be copied in some significant number whereas I can only recall one course I've played and two I've heard about (besides Riviera) that have such a hole.

It's not a CBM-Raynor "Template" hole, but is it even a much-copied thing?

thanks for yours and everybody's discussion.  I at least am eager to hear more.

cheers

vk

[V. Kmetz]

I was examining the scorecard and some aerial photos of Tamarack and was reminded of the following

1.  another template that I don't believe was mentioned is "Drive and Pitch"
2.  here was another example of an opening "Valley" hole
3.  both #9 and #18 have hole names/styles that I think are individual to this Banks' course
     ...."Moat"
     ...."Strategy"
     
here's a compendium of what this thread has yielded so far as to "Template" holes

first, the CBM-Raynor-Banks school

1.  Valley - downhill opener 350-400 yards Origin: A CBM original
2.  Sahara - involves a long blind carry over visually imposing sand hazard which shortens hole significantly. Origin :Sandwich
3.  Alps - longer 2 shot hole with second playing uphill to blind green that is nestled in bunkers.  Origin:  Prestwick
4.  Redan - "well-known" style Origin:  North Berwick
5.  Reverse Redan - as name implies however with greater changes observed in elevation Origin: 2nd generation CBM original
6.  Hog's Back - ?
7.  Short - usually a 130-160 yard hole, downhill in elevation with significant interior green contours and bunkers in play.  origin: 
8.  Road/St.Andrews - well-known, road most often replicated with bunker:  origin St. Andrews
9.  Bottle - a two shotter where tee shot is pinched by bunker array and forces choice of side, almost creating two narrow fairways Origin:  12th at Sunningdale
10. Long - odes to St. Andrews 14th with great variation based on topography, usually straight and non-doglegging.
11. Plateau-double Plateau - speaks to the green which is generally found to have one plateau short left, one back right and swale in between Origin:?
12. Eden - ode to 11th St. Andrews
13. Cape - a two shot hole that is defined by green jutting out into hazard of sand or water - Origin: CBM original
14. Narrows - ?
15.  Punchbowl - referencing the shot to green which is usually blind to sunken bowl - Origin?
16.  Leven - medium length two shotter with sight/distance reward for choosing long aggressive tee shot on well defended side: Origin:  (someone said, but I can't remember)
17.  Biarritz:  Well-known, modeled after now-defunct hole in French Atlantic resort.
18.  Maiden:  Raynor left others to name his holes and the name Maiden was bequeathed to his holes that feature high left and right plateaus with a gulley between them (his Maiden holes have nothing to do with the blind par three Maiden hole that once existed at Royal St. George’s).
19. Raynor's Prize dog -leg - long two shot hole with water hazard bisecting hole vertically presenting challenges for tee and second shot.  origin:  Raynor original
20.  Drive and Pitch - as implied, the intended examination is heaped on the short second shot - Origin:  ?
21.  Knoll - a 360-420 yard two-shot hole where green is defended by volcanic topography as much as any hazard. 
22.  Lido/channel hole - 

We've also discussed regarding other architects

23.  Island green
24.  volcano
25.  Bunker in the middle (Donut) of green
26   Dolomites  ()
27.  Skyline
29.  double dog-leg
30.  switchback
31.  the postage stamp


any info you can add to sharpen or expand the list is much-appreciated

cheers

vk

 

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