[Martin Toal]

Jumped the shark?

That reminds me. Any chance someone could get me onto that new private Greg Norman course?







TFIC.

[Mark Chaplin]

Whilst we can moan about people with a poor grasp of respect arguing with each other over trivia, like the TV it's easy to deal with. Just don't read it and more importantly do not reply to feed the rubbish.

As for access it's considered acceptable here to ask to play a friends club as a paying guest and to ask for a membership application to be sponsored. Maybe the US isn't the classless society are led to believe it is.

[Ronald Montesano]

Brett,

Yes, it is understood by the 1970s generation and the ones after it...I was about 13 when Fonzie jumped the shark, so generations previous to mine would not know it unless they came across it or were tutored on its meaning.


Anthony,

I don't think that there's anything wrong with looking at the pictures.  Good of you to out yourself.  Hope others will join us.


JC,

Why are you so bitter about the good, new days?


Everyone else,

Keep posting (except on Tiger!)

[Anthony Gray]

  Aren't there stil great courses being built?

  ARG

[Brad Swanson]

On behalf of the site, I will ask you in what language this access whoring is taking place.  My English is very good, yet I don't recognize what folks consider to be inappropriate advances and requests.  I recall one recent thread where a fellow asked where forum members might play in a certain region and another participant got all up in arms about old history of access whoring.  That outburst surprised me then, just as your insinuation that GCA has jumped the shark.

OK Inspector Clouseau, you are quite the sleuth. .  I've been a member of this DG for nearly 8 years now, and I'll list every private club I've been fortunate enough to play through participation in the DG in an IM to you shortly.  I've taken advantage of opportunities that were offered to me, but I have not one single frigging time solicited access to a private course through this DG or in any other fashion.  Not even through reciprocity of my home club.  I am free to throw stones because my house has no glass to break.  Can you say the same?

Brad

[Craig Van Egmond]

Ah yes, the every 12 - 18 month has GCA jumped the shark thread!   

GCA has jumped the shark a bunch of times..

The old days were good but not as rosy as some remember.

Yes I miss Rcih, Tommy, Geoff, Mike Duffy, Mothman, etc.... people come people go.

Most people on this board have been very blessed in golf and in life.

If you can find a better board than GCA then go.

[PCCraig]

Without getting into the exact details of Jeff's post above, as it's really a repeat of what seems to be an annual thread, I would answer with a simple "no."

For all it's issues, GCA is still the best website of it's kind on the internet and overall is a wonderful community. I've had the chance to meet alot of really interesting and neat people from all over the country at either GCA events like the Midwest Mashie or one of the various Chicago GCA winter get togethers. I've also sent e-mails/PMs to participants that I know are from an area I was heading to asking if they were up for a game or a beer and have met some great people there.  In the same way I've always had an open invitation to any GCAer to give me a call if they knew they were heading to the area.

People forget that when you boil this place down to its fundementals it's really all about the people and our common interest and love of all things golf and golf courses.

[Michael Huber]

1.  Access whoring (hence my avatar)
 

Is the avatar from step brothers?  If so, brilliant.

Anyways, I've spent enough wasted time on the internets and I've spent enough time on way too many message boards.  If there is one thing I learned, it is that no matter where you go on the interenet (and regardless of the topic of the discussion group-be it video games or hockey or football or whatever) everyone more or less agrees that the message board was a lot better one or two or five or ten years ago when everyone was really smart and funny and posted insightful things.  The current edition of the whatever message board is full of too many newbies, too many people that don't know the etiquette of the board, and too many morons.  


I guess what I'm trying to say is that everywhere on the internet, the good old days were always better than today.

[Brad Swanson]

1.  Access whoring (hence my avatar)
 

Is the avatar from step brothers?  If so, brilliant.

Yes it is, straight from the music video.

Brad

[Tony Weiler]

Has it Jumped the Shark?  I don’t believe it has.  I haven’t been a member for long, but a long, long time lurker.  Honestly, couldn’t figure out how to join when it told me membership was “locked” or some other such thing.  I spent many hours reading the course write ups by Ran, and those were simply inspiring.  Then, I’d read just about every course write up by members, especially those with pictures.  I wasn’t focused so much on the architecture, just enjoying the course and comments by those who played it.

Now, I have come to love the architectural aspect of it so much more.  As much as some here, not even close.  I still want to PLAY golf, and score as good as I can.  Also, I do want to play fine course, and what is wrong with that?  Isn’t that what they are there for?  Anyway, I still believe the discussion threads about courses is the greatest aspect of this site.  I really don’t care at all about the history of Merion, though clearly, others do.  I can only read so much of that.  Further, if there are threads about Tiger, I just don’t read them.  I don’t have enough time in the day for that.  The thread right now on Sand Hills is one of the best I’ve ever read, and particularly, as it is where I’ll be next week.  And no, I didn’t “whore myself out” to get that invite!
 

[Scott Warren]

GCA remains by far the best website around for discussion and debate about golf architecture.

Other sites have their quirks as well. Bombsquadgolf has essentially evolved into a porn site.  Instructional forums tend to be taken over by golf machine devotees. Other architecture sites have shortcomings also.

there is no place better for a knowledgeable discussion.

If you can find a better board than GCA then go.

For all it's issues, GCA is still the best website of it's kind on the internet and overall is a wonderful community.

All fair and reasonable sentiments.

But I find myself thinking of a newspaper I used to work at that was so far and away the best in the region that those at the helm got a touch complacent and within a few years it (and they) had grown fat and lazy and it was no longer the best in its market.

It's entirely possible for GCA.com to be both the best website of its type AND significantly flawed. There's nothing wrong with wanting to make a great place even better or address the weaknesses it might have.

[Mark Smolens]

If jumping, leaping, or quickly typing my response when the invitation came out to play Lost Dunes is considered "access whoring," then color me guilty of that. However, I defy anyone to read Brett Morrisey's thread about his trip to the States and be critical of this DG. The absolute joy that comes through his words about an awesome trip is the reason I "waste" so very much time each day wandering around this site. . .

[Brent Hutto]

I'm not in a position to be on the receiving end of a dozen or a score or a hundred access requests from people I've never heard of. I can see how that would well and truly suck.

Beyond that, it really comes down to ignoring the incessant pissing contests. Why grown men feel the need to carry on these grudge fests for months or years at a stretch is beyond me. That which I can't understand I can ignore.

That's about it, though. If you ignore the schoolyard taunting threads (and the frequent interjections of same into otherwise worthwhile threads) and aren't subject to harassment by access-seekers it's a fine place to hang out. I mean hey, it's an Internet forum and a few drama queens come with the territory. I wouldn't consider that to be a disabling set of issues.

[Michael Huber]

To further elaborate on some of the things Scott Warren quoted, I have to say that GCA is still the best place to be during majors.  The discussion (for the most part, obviously) of Pebble and The Old Course was both lively and insightful. 

Also, the discussion/analysis of Old McDonald has been nothing short of comprehensive.

[Phil McDade]

Scott:

"It's entirely possible for GCA.com to be both the best website of its type AND significantly flawed. There's nothing wrong with wanting to make a great place even better or address the weaknesses it might have."

True, but Jeff's original complaint centered on, essentially, three things:

a) -- Access issues, in part seemingly tied to his position at a very high-profile and private club;
b) -- Lots of personal animosity expressed on what appears to be a relatively few threads;
c) -- Missing some folks he liked who used to contribute, but don't now.

All of those, from where I sit, come down to personal conduct and/or choices by people whose actions none of us here can control, nor do I personally want to. As for the rest of the site, Ran continues to post interesting and well-written profiles of courses old (Canterbury) and new (Ballyhack), interviews with folks deeply involved in golf architecture, and hosts a discussion board that every single week contains a photo thread of some course with a lot of interest, and alot to tell us, about the incredible variety of courses around the world.

This is a wheat-and-chaff issue, and if folks can't separate the two, I'd suggest they're not trying hard enough...

[Mike Cirba]

Didn't Tommy leave willingly?

Jeff...I'd like to see him back here as well but I believe that's his decision.

[Craig Van Egmond]

Yep Tommy took his ball and went home... from what I hear though Tommy's fine and hanging out at the lounge.

[RJ_Daley]

Jeff, I'm not sure why you have returned to this 'jump the shark' theme once again.  How many times have we been there and done that?  It is sort of like the periodic obligatory group therapy, get it off you chest venting of frustration that we seem to go through on a regular basis.  

One of the modern throw away lines seems to be:  "it is what it is".  Personally, I don't like hearing that line very often, but unfortunately, it completely applies or defines the problems we sometimes go through here on GCA.com along with its many splendid conversations and benefits.  

We all have our warts, and if we've been on GCA.com long enough, know where every other long time participant's goats are tied.  So in a way, when we have some underlying need to call attention to ourselves, we often revert to some embedded line of observation or comment that we know will piss off or get a rise out of some others, and then the food fight starts.  Some of our participants have taken that sort of posting of 'red flags at a bull' methods of commenting to sadistic levels of confrontation and taunting.  What a pity...

For those that are missing, most of them were not chased off.  They left voluntarily.  Those that were asked to leave or IP banned; they made their own beds with comments that went beyond the pale by just about anyone's standards of decency.  With some of them, we lost some very insightful commentatiors of GCA issues, but the nastiness that came with it became too much to suffer, when seeing otherwise nice people gut eachother over basically egotistical  demonstrations of; 'my gca accumen is greater than yours'.

And for the record, I have tried very hard to avoid some of the bad GCA acting posts I succumbed to in the past when taking the bait and rising to the occasion of taunts or opportunistic political comment from right wing political off topic discussions, only to interject my equally o.t. irrelavant disenchanted formerly conservative, now liberal views of matters.  I go to local newspaper blogs now, where the foodfight posts are generally capped at 1000 characters of raging opinion.  Although I can't promise that I am completely over that bad GCA.com behaviour and might backslide from time to time, like a reformed alcoholic slips now and then...

[Mike Cirba]

RJ,

You're a wise man...nice post.

[Richard Choi]

If I may bring up another sitcom reference...

It does seem to me that this type of thread pops up every year for one reason or another. Personally, I think it is healthy to vent a bit. It is better to hash it out in the open rather than just bottling it up than just leave this place due to frustration.

So, perhaps we should have an annual GCA Festivus Day (Festivus for the Rest of Us! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festivus). We can plant our virtual Festivus pole and have the annual "Air of Grievances" (we can probably skip the "Feats of Strength" though I would love to see Shiv go against Pat Craig).

Everyone can post what bugs them about this site for that one day and then move on.

What do you think?

[Ben Sims]

I say live and let live.  

Some folks don't know how to gain access to a club they'd like to play.  For me, if I know someone is a member and has publicly written on this site to PM or email them for a game (i.e, they have an open invite) then I have no qualms about asking.  If I want to play a club and that isn't the case, direct letter to the club is the fall back and most preferred method of seeing the golf course.  And also, personally contacting someone for information about their club or course isn't always a ruse for access.  I've personally contacted half a dozen folks on this DG asking about their course/club with absolutely no implication or expectation to play.  I just wanted to know more about why they love their course.  

Last word about access.  This has been said before; the genuine folks are easy to spot, and the trophy hunters are easy to spot too.  Just this summer, Pat Mucci, Jim Colton, and Brad Fleischer have all set up public access (folks on this DG) to great golf courses.  Thats three trips with off the top of my head to great golf courses.  There's plenty to go around.  

As far as the very personal bickering and animosity?  I read it sometimes for informational purposes.  I have no desire to go to war with anyone over the genesis of a golf course.  Life's too short and I've been shot at, so for me, I'd rather golf courses stay positive.  Superciliousness has no place in speaking about golf courses.

[Jed Peters]

Yawn.

Hey, didn't MacKenzie design Merion?

[George Pazin]

This topic comes up every so often. I pretty much always say the same thing when it does:

Ignore the negatives, there's far far more positives, and start contributing to the positives. Start interesting architectural threads. If they get ignored, start another one.

I'd love it if Tommy and others returned, but that's in their hands, no?

Jed, lookout behind you!

[Jeff Fortson]

Sorry.  I just have to respond to this.

Jeff

Good for you to have the strength of your convections (hot air) and submit a topic all about your opinion on the sites DG.

You made your case well and relased some of the tension and frustration that certainly seems to have built up within you over the years.

Nevertheless you post screams of hypocrisy, why is it your right to voice your opinion no matter how strongly, yet you condemn others for doing the very same. You also have no balls in that you clearly make the following statement I'm sick of the elitist mentalities, the groveling access whores, and relatives of famous golfers telling us how the game should be played    yet will not name names having said that you have clearly single me out for your criticism.

As it’s a DG you have the right to an opinion whether we agree or not, that’s the point of a DG. The DG is a golfing forum for free ideas and opinions to be discussed or ignored by the members of the forum. In truth you are criticising the very right of others to have a say or voice, just because they do not go along with your way of thinking.

As for my point of view, it has always been just that, my point of view, my opinion on a DG. Its based upon a sincere belief that the game is moving away from its core traditions established over centuries. This DG is about golf and so I have every right to offer up my opinions on the subject.  How others interoperate my tone in my posts is down to them, all I say is that it is from the heart as golf, its people and its history including Prestwick and St Andrews have been ever present all my life. Clearly this is something I can only share with other members of my family who also care about the game. I have a unique insight to the game and so my opinions may well differ from those of others, yet I have no power to change anything, no authority just the freedom that this site offers me to post my opinions.   

 
You are a coward for not having the bottle to openly attack me or others by naming names but you make it very clear that you are sick of me and my right to free speech.

If I feel something is wrong at least, like it or not I voice my opinion and try and share my concerns with others who I was lead to believe were like minded.

Jeff, John Kyle and any others who feel the same way, let me state that whether I agree or not with your opinions or decided to debate the points of your topic, I still most sincerely believe that you have the right to that opinion, pity you don’t show the same courtesy and share that same value with others.
 

Melvyn 

Melvyn,

At what point did I condemn people for having opinions in my post?  I'm all for differing opinions.  If I'm a "hypocrite" then what does criticizing my opinion make you?  Do you see your own hypocrisy?  At what point did I suggest you, personally, not be allowed to post or say anything?  How am I infringing on your free speech?  Don't I have the right to share my opinions too?  Or, is that reserved for the great-great grandchildren of famous golfers?  I never even brought up free speech.  Are you drunk?

I'm not going to get in some pissing match with you.  Considering how well known you have made it that you are the great-great grandson of Tom Morris I guess that would lump you in with the "relatives of famous golfers" group.  Oops.  

Let me share an opinion with you...  being the alleged great-great grandson of Tom Morris (while being a very cool thing) does not make you any more of an authority on golf than anyone else.  Speak your mind.  Please.  But don't try to support your beliefs based on your genes.  I've read so many posts of yours where I visualize your great-great grandfather rolling his eyes and wanting to say "shut the fuck up lad".  That's MY opinion.

As for not having the "bottle" aka "balls" and being a "coward", well believe whatever you like.  I don't need to prove anything to someone that bases the value of their own opinions on the fact that they were made from Old Tom Morris's baby batter.  

I really missed you Melvyn.  Thanks for the laugh.  Now I'm remembering why I left in the first place.


Jeff F.

[Jeff Fortson]

To everyone else,

I agree there is still some great stuff on this website and I come back here all the time.  I guess I just feel that the DG is a shadow of its former self.  There are still some great threads and some great contributors.  I'm glad to see the likes of Mucci, Paul, Doak, etc., etc. (forgive me for not including many more of you), but I find it sad that this DG got to a point where many were either kicked off or chose to leave.

For all the newer guys, I truly hope gca.com has been able to do for you what it did for me for many years.  It's a great resource and a fun place to chat (or used to be).  Just don't abuse it, or great contributors might leave like they have in the past.  

I'm off the soap box.  Sorry from this long time member for sharing his concerns.

I'll still lurk and post occasionally.


Jeff F.

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