[John Moore II]

Well, taking a quick look at a list I made from the Golf Digest Top 100 Public, California has 9 courses on the list, Oregon 5 (highly likely to go up to 6 or at least a new 5th), South Carolina has 11 courses, North Carolina has 5, Hawaii has 7, Michigan has 5 and Florida has 5. Pennsylvania has 1, Nemacolin Woodlands. While the other states might not have a truly 'great' course, they certainly have a good volume of very good courses.

John,
who is going to be traveling on vacation to Pittsburgh?  How about Philly (other than the history buffs)?  With the exception of Michigan and oregon, those states have warm weather and chalk full of resorts.  I just don't see anyone traveling for a week to PA to spend $200 a round on courses. 


I'm also of the opinion that there really are not that many great pieces of land to build golf courses in and around Pittsburgh.

Fair enough, I was simply answering the question that I have quoted at the top of my post.

[George Pazin]

I'm also of the opinion that there really are not that many great pieces of land to build golf courses in and around Pittsburgh.

I'll disagree strongly with you on this comment, at least in regard to western PA, though I think it probably covers all of PA as well.

We don't have links land, or ocean views, or sand hills, or anything remotely like that. But we do have a lot of terrific private courses on the same exact type of land that our mediocre public courses utilize and that characterizes our geography in general. There is interesting geography all over the place, we just haven't had any make good use of it.

We could easily have some very good public courses, but I'm not really complaining, because we do have a lot of mom and pop, extremely inexpensive golf courses. Would I prefer a Rustic Canyon sit upon one of these? Sure. But I'm not holding my breath.

Mostly it boils down to the economics of golf, which do not really favor good public courses.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

And NJ has only one on Passov's top 100- the formerly private Atantic City CC.

I think some of us Philly guys should visit Olde Stonwall next year when we go to the US Open at Oakmont. Is it really that good?

[Phil McDade]

Other than the famous ultra-high end publics like Bandon, Pinehurst, etc...  What state would have "great" public golf?

Wisconsin is a pretty good candidate. It has the four Herb Kohler/Pete Dye course -- Whistling Straits, the Irish Course, Blackwolf Run-River and Meadow Valleys. Granted, they may be of the so-expensive-they're-not-really-public courses, and they are not to everyone's liking, but you can get on them without access. Add in Erin Hills, the Bull at Pinehurst Farms (Nicklaus), Dye's Big Fish near Hayward, and the Hurdzan-Fry courses (Troy Burne, with Lehman, in Hudson, and the new Wild Rock course in W. Dells), and Wisconsin has a pretty good selection of public options. Throw in Lawsonia (maybe the best course in the state, from a GCA-wingnut factor; only Milwaukee CC in my mind can be discussed alongside Lawsonia as best-in-state), and it may be one of the few states where the top-end publics trump the privates.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mostly it boils down to the economics of golf, which do not really favor good public courses.

That's the reality of it. What does 'great' cost to build in your locale, and what green fee would it support?

Triple digit green fees are not sustainable in CT., a not-too-poor state.

[Dan Herrmann]

Some states without a truly great public golf course:
PA, DE, NJ (maybe ACC), Upstate NY (Long Island is its own world to this native of Western NY), VT, NH, ME, MD, WA,  etc..

I don't think this is unique to PA.

[John Moore II]

Some states without a truly great public golf course:
PA, DE, NJ (maybe ACC), Upstate NY (Long Island is its own world to this native of Western NY), VT, NH, ME, MD, WA,  etc..

I don't think this is unique to PA.

Washington?? Chambers Bay??

Does Massachusetts have a great public course? Either way, other than Washington is the only course you listed that is not in the Northeastern United States.

[Chris_Blakely]

Some states without a truly great public golf course:
PA, DE, NJ (maybe ACC), Upstate NY (Long Island is its own world to this native of Western NY), VT, NH, ME, MD, WA,  etc..

I don't think this is unique to PA.

Washington?? Chambers Bay??

Does Massachusetts have a great public course? Either way, other than Washington is the only course you listed that is not in the Northeastern United States.

Taconic GC is not pure public but allows public play and I would say that it is great.

[George Pazin]

What is glaring to me is the difference in quality between privates and public in PA that are built on land that is very similar, at least to the unpracticed eye.

As I said earlier, economics is a big part of it. In conjunction with the economics of today, there is the fact that many or most of the great courses of yesterday were private - how many public courses did Mackenzie, Ross, Flynn, Tillie, etc., build? How many survived?

[Ronald Montesano]

John, Just because it's on Passov's list, doesn't mean it's great.

[Richard Choi]

Ron, just because you say it isn't, doesn't make it so either. Most people I've talked to on this board gives it Doak 7, which is pretty great in my opinion.

[Phil McDade]

What is glaring to me is the difference in quality between privates and public in PA that are built on land that is very similar, at least to the unpracticed eye.

As I said earlier, economics is a big part of it. In conjunction with the economics of today, there is the fact that many or most of the great courses of yesterday were private - how many public courses did Mackenzie, Ross, Flynn, Tillie, etc., build? How many survived?

Although not great, Ross designed Mark Twain GC, a well-regarded public (it's even a muni) in Elmira, NY. I think Doak gave it a 5.

[Mike Cirba]

I'm just curious what is unique about PA to single it out Ryan?

Surely most states are lacking a "great" public course as others have mentioned.

Is it simply your Pittsburgh roots tha cause you to beg the question?

[Dan Herrmann]

Wouldn't "Great" be a Doak 9+ ?

(PS - I forgot about Chambers Bay in WA)

[John Moore II]

Wouldn't "Great" be a Doak 9+ ?

(PS - I forgot about Chambers Bay in WA)

If it is, then my memory tells me that only 3 states would have a "great" public course according to the Confidential Guide; North Carolina (#2) California (Pebble Beach) and Nevada (Shadow Creek). If you go out to 8, then you only add South Carolina (Harbor Town) and Florida (World Woods and TPC). Certainly courses have been built since the CG was published, certainly Oregon makes its way onto the list as certainly one of the four at Bandon is at least an 8 no matter who you ask. I should think that in the context of a public course, a 7 would be considered great, not great overall, but most likely in the top 5% of all public golf courses.

[mike_malone]

 I think a Doak 7 fits the bill for this analysis. If Glen Mills made the change I suggest it would be a 7.

[John Moore II]

#1 in each state, according to Golf Magazine, with Confidential Guide rating where available:

Alabama-Grand National (Lake)
Alaska-Chena Bend
Arizona-Troon North (Pinnacle)
Arkansas-Stonebridge Meadows
California-Pebble Beach [9]
Colorado-Red Sky Ranch (Norman)
Connecticut-Lake of Isles (North)
Delaware-Bayside
Florida-TPC Sawgrass [8]
Georgia-Sea Island (Seaside)
Hawaii-Mauna Kea
Idaho-Coeur d'Alene
Illinois-Cog Hill #4
Indiana-French Lick (Dye)
Iowa-The Harvester
Kansas-Colbert Hills
Kentucky-Old Silo
Louisiana-The Bluffs
Maine-Belgrade Lakes
Maryland-Bulle Rock
Massachusetts-Taconic
Michigan-Arcadia Bluffs
Minnesota-Quarry at Giants Ridge
Mississippi-Fallen Oak at Beau Rivage
Missouri-Branson Creek
Montana-Old Works
Nebraska-Wild Horse
Nevada-Shadow Creek [9]
New Hampshire-Mount Washington
New Jersey-Atlantic City
New Mexico-Paa-Ko Ridge
New York-Bethpage (Black) [7]
North Carolina-Pinehurst #2 (10)
North Dakota-Hawktree
Ohio-Longaberger
Oklahoma-Karsten Creek
Oregon-Pacific Dunes
Pennsylvania-Bedford Springs
Rhode Island-Newport National (Orchard)
South Carolina-The Ocean Course [7]
South Dakota-Red Rock
Tennessee-Ross Creek Landing
Texas-Barton Creek (Fazio Canyons)
Utah-Entrada at Snow Canyon
Vermont-Green Mountain National
Virginia-The Homestead (Cascades)
Washington-Chambers Bay
West Virginia-The Greenbrier (Greenbrier)
Wisconsin-Whistling Straits (Straits) [Blackwolf Run (River) comes in at 7; Straits is probabaly that good, no?]
Wyoming-Powder Horn

[Phil McDade]

Here's a link to the Doak 1-10 rating scale from the CG:

http://www.designmentor.co.uk/dynamicpoll/scale.htm

[Joe Bausch]

A state so rich in private courses, how long will it take for PA to get a great public course?

As soon as you are out on your own Ryan and are given a real nice piece of land?

 

[Kyle Harris]

I think Ryan's point is that PA has a relatively large, even unbalanced, amount of very well-regarded private clubs...

Yet, relatively little in terms of public-access.

[Richard Choi]

But isn't that true in most states, especially places abundant with courses from 20's and 30's?

[Dan Herrmann]

Sure is, Richard.   Perfect case in point is Rochester, NY.  Long time white-collar town with world-class privates and so-so publics (until recent openings).
 

[John Moore II]

But isn't that true in most states, especially places abundant with courses from 20's and 30's?

Perhaps it is true in most cases, but certainly not in North Carolina.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

There have been new publics built recently in SE PA after Glen Mills- Raven's Claw, Lederach, Morgan Hill, Rivercrest- but none have made a great architectural impact but they do generate business. The new highly rated privates that have been built recently probably have better sites- Applebrook, Stonewall= for example.

It's all in the site IMO.

[Mike Cirba]

It's true in any of the older, established eastern seaboard  and midwest states that were not also winter resorts like FL, NC, SC, GA.

If you took Bethpage out of NY the same would be the case there.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()