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Shane Wright

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Re: Educate me on golf in England
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2010, 10:44:46 AM »
Michael - ABSOLUTELY!

I just hope they aren't all 500+ pounds each by the time I'm able to get there.


Scott Warren

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Re: Educate me on golf in England
« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2010, 10:45:30 AM »
Shane..
The good news..neither England nor the golf courses are going anywhere...they will still be there when the timing is right ;D

Except maybe for Brancaster!

Dub_ONeill

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Re: Educate me on golf in England
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2010, 11:07:21 AM »
I would echo many of the sentiments expressed here.  We made a trip to Southport last year and played  the courses mentioned in Lancashire plus West Lancs and Wallasey.  I think Southport offers a terrific base for links golf.  It is less than an hour from the Manchester Airport.  You can fly there non-stop from the states.  You can stay in one hotel and be less than an hour from Hoylake, Wallasey, Formby, Birkdale, Lytham, Hillside, West Lancs, and Southport & Ainsdale.  Several of these courses are less than 20 minutes apart which facilitates 36 hole days. It is the most convenient access to terrific links golf that I have seen anywhere.

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Educate me on golf in England
« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2010, 11:57:21 AM »
And no sign of Perry Golf tour buses!!
Cave Nil Vino

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: Educate me on golf in England
« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2010, 12:16:19 PM »
Mark...
Amen to that ...BUT for how long...perhaps we should NOT spread the word too loudly ;D

Jamie Barber

Re: Educate me on golf in England
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2010, 12:29:24 PM »
A bit of shameless promotion, but at Prince's a new dormie house and lodge is being built in the old clubhouse, with 80 beds, so from next year you can visit Kent, stay right on the coast overlooking Prince's and St George's, and 10 mins from RCP. It'll be a great golfing base for the SE.

Tim Pitner

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Re: Educate me on golf in England
« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2010, 12:40:18 PM »
As to why Scotland and Ireland exceed England as a golf destination for Americans, I'll offer a few thoughts: 

-- Scotland has St. Andrews and Ireland has Ballybunion--for reasons, some easily understandable, some less so, these are the two links courses most Americans seem to know; the perception is that England does not have a flagship course

-- Many Americans traveling to play golf are seeking a certain experience that Scotland and Ireland may do better than England--they want the old country, small villages, rugged golf courses, etc.--they're not looking to stay in a big city like London or Manchester, for example

-- Publicity is certainly a factor; a lot of people don't know that you can fairly easily access the great heathland clubs in the London area, for example--they know you can play the links courses in Scotland and Ireland because of the advertised tours

I'm sure there are many other reasons, but I think the three I mentioned are significant.  Why heathland golf in England is not more of a draw to Americans baffles me--we have even less of that than we do links courses. 

Pete Lavallee

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Re: Educate me on golf in England
« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2010, 01:29:05 PM »
For James Boon's sake I will now offer the opinion of a Frenchman!

My wife is English, she grew up in the village next to Lytham St. Annes and her family moved to Cornwall when she was a teenager. We honeymooned in Scotland; at the time the price was reasonable. We stayed and played the great resorts: Glenaeagles, TOC, Dornoch and Turnberry; TOC was a mere 25 pounds back then. As someone whose only connection to what was available over there was Golf Digest and Golf Magazine; I knew about the famous courses, mostly because they advertised and Scotland did a good job of promoting what was available. I sent away to the Scottish Tourism Board and got maps and brochures detailing where to go play and stay. When we visited her parents in Cornwall at the tail end of the trip though we played the Nicklaus course at St. Mellions with St. Enodoc and Perranporth just a short drive away! We just didn't have the resources of golfclubatlas or the Confidential Guide to point us in the right direction in those days.

I spent 6 months in Southhampton in 1989 while my wife was selling her house there. Although we diid play Stoneham, we confined our golf to the municipal course there for the most part. Although I suspected Hayling Island was something special we never did get a chance to play there. Little did I know that within spitting distance were the 4 very good courses in Bournemouth: Parkstone, Broadstone, Ferndown and The Isle of Purbeck. We did spend a month each touring Ireland and Scotland, playing the best they had to offer; prices were still reasonable back then. I don't even recall seeing a Perry Tour bus! But where to play there was quite obvious and playing the best was an attainable goal.

It would appear that the English are quite happy with the relative obscurity of their courses; but they still roll out the welcome mat for anybody who takes the time to write a polite letter. The Pro will not have to put on a mask when taking your green fees. The only drawbacks are that you will be relagated to playing weekdays only; all the better to play the tourist and soak in the numerous cultural offerings on the weekends. You will also probably have to play alone; during our 3 week trip several years ago we played 12 rounds and were never paired with a local in any of them. Sounds like a very good problem to have though.

"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Educate me on golf in England
« Reply #33 on: August 04, 2010, 01:33:33 PM »
Marketing, from my local paper last week;

Taxpayers fund St Andrews Golf "jolly"


Taxpayers picked up a bill for £1279 for five people to go to St Andrews for meetings and planning for the 2011 Open at Sandwich, they point out the Open is worth around £70m to the local economy but a councillor thought it a disgrace.

In a letter to the editor I pointed out that councils from the north west and Scotland would be delighted to bring an extra Open to their area if Kent appeared uninterested. I also suggest the Prime Minister would welcome the councilor to the Government he he could make such returns for a £1279 investment!
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 01:37:26 PM by Mark Chaplin »
Cave Nil Vino

David_Tepper

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Re: Educate me on golf in England
« Reply #34 on: August 04, 2010, 01:43:36 PM »
Here is a question for our English-based GCA-ers: 

It certainly appears that a good number of Scottish & Irish golf clubs are dependent upon visitor green fees (from overseas visitors) to generate a substantial portion of their operating revenue and help keep member dues relative modest.

If the English clubs, in general, get much less revenue from overseas visitors, where does the revenue come from to supplement the income they get from member dues? Either the dues at English clubs must be higher or the operating budgets must be smaller. I know a number of English clubs cater to visiting "golfing societies." Does the income they receive from these outings take the place of the income the Scottish & Irish clubs get from overseas visitors? 

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: Educate me on golf in England
« Reply #35 on: August 04, 2010, 02:34:08 PM »
Smaller operating budgets tahan the courses that claim to depend upon visitors.
It is a catch 22 situation...once you open the door and encourage visitors..especially Americans..you have certain conditioning demands placed upon your golf course.
This costs money..money that comes in from the vistors you are increasing expenditure to attract...as such once the door is open you have no choice.
Those lesser known courses will welcome the vistor money but will not go out on a limb to change what they already have.
Perfect example is Turnberry...
I remember playing the British Amatuer there in the early 80's...the course was still predominantly brown on the fairways...however two opens later it is all green, because that is what most of the tourists want to see...the obsession with green.

Has anybody ever seen St Andrews looking as green as it did this year at The Open...and that in the midst of a very dry summer?
The increased wtaering etc to produce the green look costs money...usually the American $$$$

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Educate me on golf in England
« Reply #36 on: August 04, 2010, 02:40:19 PM »

David T

Appearances can be Deceptive as well as the eyes can play tricks upon the mind

Don’t believe me then check this out. But only those pure in heart and mind (you have been warned)
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0dQG0P1qo8

Melvyn

Tim Nugent

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Re: Educate me on golf in England
« Reply #37 on: August 04, 2010, 03:18:14 PM »
I was lucky enough to be introduced to golf in England prior to Scotland.  Coming from the States, it was probably less a jolt to the senses than Scotland and therefore was a good introduction and when I did go to Scotland, it was easier to absorb the architecture.
The hardest thing to get used to was erasing the "shoot for the Pin" mentality and figuring out that 30 yrds short was a good place to aim for - that and the shorter flagsticks that threw off my depth perception.
Coasting is a downhill process

Brent Hutto

Re: Educate me on golf in England
« Reply #38 on: August 04, 2010, 03:30:26 PM »
When I aim for the pin the ball tends to land 30 yards short of the green anyways. So my first day playing golf in England was a treat!

Scott Warren

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Re: Educate me on golf in England
« Reply #39 on: August 04, 2010, 03:33:29 PM »
When I aim for the pin the ball tends to land 30 yards short of the green anyways. So my first day playing golf in England was a treat!

;D

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: Educate me on golf in England
« Reply #40 on: August 04, 2010, 03:35:00 PM »
Jamie presumably it will also make it harder to police that toll road which is my favourite way to approach Deal?  It's in a great spot and if they get the food and bar right then it will add to the appeal of the area to touring golfers considerably. The practice facilities right outside are great.  could stick in 5 pins and have mini sheep ranch.


David hopefully Chapper’s will answer your question. I do believe societies playing midweek generate more £'s for English Clubs than they do for Celtic ones and it’s a significant source of income for many clubs.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 03:55:33 PM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

Tim Nugent

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Re: Educate me on golf in England
« Reply #41 on: August 04, 2010, 03:49:48 PM »
When I aim for the pin the ball tends to land 30 yards short of the green anyways. So my first day playing golf in England was a treat!

Guess the shorter flags didn't help? ;D
Coasting is a downhill process

Jamie Barber

Re: Educate me on golf in England
« Reply #42 on: August 04, 2010, 04:14:53 PM »
Jamie presumably it will also make it harder to police that toll road which is my favourite way to approach Deal?  It's in a great spot and if they get the food and bar right then it will add to the appeal of the area to touring golfers considerably. The practice facilities right outside are great.  could stick in 5 pins and have mini sheep ranch.

Indeed.

A friend told me after one Open at RSG in (81 or 85 I guess), Christy O'Connor was hitting sand irons from the balcony on the old Prince's clubhouse onto the 13th green of Sandwich. I'd like to try that!!

Alas the balcony disappeared to sea in the storm of 87 and the clubhouse to fire in 08. It'll be good to see it rebuilt. Supposedly there'll be a gym and snooker room too.

Brent Hutto

Re: Educate me on golf in England
« Reply #43 on: August 04, 2010, 05:15:11 PM »
When I aim for the pin the ball tends to land 30 yards short of the green anyways. So my first day playing golf in England was a treat!

Guess the shorter flags didn't help? ;D

Sure, that's probably why I didn't land it 40 yards short.

Jim Hoak

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Re: Educate me on golf in England
« Reply #44 on: August 04, 2010, 06:22:32 PM »
As someone who has played golf in Scotland and Ireland 10+ times, I had never played golf in England until we decided to correct that two years ago.  We played all the British Open courses, plus some around London.  We enjoyed our trip very much, but I have to disagree with whoever said that the golf in England was as good as Scotland and Ireland.  Close, perhaps, but not as good.
Having said that, playing Sunningdale Old and New in the same day is about as good a golf experience as I've ever had.  Non-links golf doesn't get any better.
Now off in a few days for Ireland again.  If they could only do something about those Irish roads . . . .

James Boon

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Re: Educate me on golf in England
« Reply #45 on: August 05, 2010, 03:22:31 AM »
For James Boon's sake I will now offer the opinion of a Frenchman!

Pete,

I was just making a joke that some of the biggest supporters of Englands golf seemed to be from countries that you wouldn't normally think of having anything positive to say about England  ::)  ;D So I'm very glad you like England also! Perhaps most of us locals are following the stereotype and being modest about what we have (before putting our bowler hats on and stepping onto a red double decker bus...) I know that all the GCAers I've met here would be more than happy to meet / host / help out with anyone who wants to come and sample the delights of this country!

Cheers,

James
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Educate me on golf in England
« Reply #46 on: August 05, 2010, 05:56:31 AM »
M P-W - believe it's been wet all summer in Scotland, south east England has had hardly any rain since May but elsewhere in the country it's a different story.

David Tepper - good quesion. I cannot answer for Ireland as I've never been there, Scotland has 100s of golf courses but I guess no more than 50 draw a healthy percentage of their income from overseas visitors.

Societies, if we go back to the mid 80s the average members club in England would have had 2 or 3 societies a week consisting of 36 guys playing 36 with lunch. Bookings were made on the day for next year and it was a nice little earner! From the mid 80s more and more privately owned courses opened, with few members societies were their key to income, the status quo for the private clubs was ruined by marketing, offers, courting of organisers, etc. By and large the member clubs stuck their heads in the sand thinking they had a good product and the price was the price. So income tailed off.

Now habits are changing and 12 guys turn up wanting 18 holes with ham egg and chips and couple of pints and off home. Every area of the club has suffered; less greefees, no full lunches and heavy lunchtime sessions have left the bar.

To keep the standards members have expected and to pay for the clubhouse extensions built on the back of visitor income, fees have had to in many cases rocket.

Jim Hoak - England having the best courses? Maybe not, but I argue on diversity of the best quality golf. England has world top 100 inland courses , on one list 6 top 100 inland and 5 links, the same list has 6 links over Ireland and Ulster and 8 links and 1 inland course for Scotland.

Melvyn - a classic!
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 05:59:27 AM by Mark Chaplin »
Cave Nil Vino

Mark Pearce

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Re: Educate me on golf in England
« Reply #47 on: August 05, 2010, 03:38:17 PM »
As someone who has played golf in Scotland and Ireland 10+ times, I had never played golf in England until we decided to correct that two years ago.  We played all the British Open courses, plus some around London.  We enjoyed our trip very much, but I have to disagree with whoever said that the golf in England was as good as Scotland and Ireland.  Close, perhaps, but not as good.
Having said that, playing Sunningdale Old and New in the same day is about as good a golf experience as I've ever had.  Non-links golf doesn't get any better.
Now off in a few days for Ireland again.  If they could only do something about those Irish roads . . . .
Jim,

I would suggest that your mistake was to play the Open rota courses and a few of the London courses.  The glory of English golf is the variety.  Sometimes (frequently) it pays to move away from the very biggest names.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Jud_T

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Re: Educate me on golf in England
« Reply #48 on: August 05, 2010, 03:51:49 PM »
Mac,

We've been to Ireland twice and Scotland once and I'm kicking myself that I've only played one round of golf in England.  I think you are right on the money to go directly to England first, particularly if you have enough time to sample all that's on offer-My personal wish list:

Rye
Royal Worlington
Westward Ho!
Addington
Brancaster


Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Gary Slatter

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Re: Educate me on golf in England
« Reply #49 on: August 05, 2010, 03:56:03 PM »
St Andrews (north of England) has had a wet spring and the decreased play prior to the Open also allowed it to "green" up.

I don't have this years figures but previously many (most) courses rely on vistors fees, however the majority of these fees are from UK visitors with Continental and Scandanavians filling in for the missing North American punters.

IMHO golf in England is second only to golf in Scotland although an honest investigation may reveal England has the most hidden gems.  Scotland has that great 'English' golf association, the R&A, helping promote golf in Scotland.  I was very surprised by the number of English R&A members, and many of them would like more Opens in the south.
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

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